A bit rich, Melanie. The Israelis totally destoryed the infrastructure of the Palestinian Preventative Security Force and arrested or killed many of its members and then you complain of vigilante violence!

And if there is any significance that an off duty Palestinian policeman was involved in a bombing, what should we make of the fact that Baruch Goldstein who murdered 29 people at prayer was a member of the IDF and used his IDF weapon and IDF ammunition to carry out the killings. Or of the fact that the people who placed bombs in the cars of West Bank mayors were also serving officers in the IDF. Do these facts prove that the IDF is a terrorist organisation?

I take it that logic was not one of your strong subjects at school.

Dr. Helen Smith who is, coincidentally, married to "instapundit", has an interesting article at Tech Central Station today. She gives her professional opinion about who can and cannot be appeased.

[If anyone wants to read it, and can't find it, I'll dredge up the link.]

Do moral relativists seek this site or are there just a lot of them in general?

Just because there are atrocities on both sides does not mean that both sides are morally equivalent. It's not about which side's maniacs stack up the most dead bodies. It's about which side represents democracy and which is a sacrilegious death cult.

It's really too bad honest-to-God soldiers have to risk their lives on behalf of moral relativists who would otherwise disappear from the gene pool.

Good one Theo.

Hey let's give those wonderful people a nation of their own. Finish that fence already!

"The Israelis totally destoryed the infrastructure of the Palestinian Preventative Security Force and arrested or killed many of its members and then you complain of vigilante violence!"

On the contrary, the Israelis armed the PA police forces. To the extent that they killed or arrested any of them, it's because the PA repeatedly contributed to terrorism rather than fighting it. Also, the US and EU and UN have given tons of aid to the territories, much of which has gone into Arafat's pockets. Arafat's Fatah has been linked to numerous terrorist acts and Arafat supports suicide bombings. There have been plenty of opportunities for the PA to bite the bullet and clean out their terrorists and they repeatedly refuse to do so.

Your comment also shows that you aren't taking the word of the Palestinian profiled in the article Melanie links to. If you really cared about freedom for the Palestinians you would be supporting what he is trying to do instead of making excuses for Arafat.

"And if there is any significance that an off duty Palestinian policeman was involved in a bombing, what should we make of the fact that Baruch Goldstein who murdered 29 people at prayer was a member of the IDF and used his IDF weapon and IDF ammunition to carry out the killings. Or of the fact that the people who placed bombs in the cars of West Bank mayors were also serving officers in the IDF. Do these facts prove that the IDF is a terrorist organisation"

Baruch Goldstein worked alone. At no point were his actions sanctioned by any religious, military or political authority. His actions were universally condemned across the political spectrum and by the great mass of the Israeli public, by all religious authorities, and by all media outlets.

Compare that isolated act with a Palestinian authority which pours out hatred towards the Jewish people day and night through every possible medium; which explicitly sanctions and approves of mass-murder against Jews; which looks on in benign satisfaction as the Palestinian people rejoice at yet another mass-slaying of innocent Jews.

To be a suicide bomber requires an immense infrastructure for planning the logistics. Suicide bombers not only do not work alone, they are merely the tip of a very large iceberg. The policeman who was responsible for that vile act of murder in Jerusalem was prepared and sent by a large terrorist gang (Al Aqsa Martyr's Brigade) which is in turn directly associated with Arafat's Fatah organization. It was this terrorist gang which later claimed to the world's media this "great victory" of the bus bombing for itself.

The Jewish people are being subjected to a campaign of violence and hatred unlike anything seen since the Holocaust. That those carrying out this violence should have so many supporters in Europe comes as little suprise to those who know that cultures are generally very slow to change. It is sobering to reflect though that, in Europe's case, the wickedness of the grandparents has indeed been passed on to the grandchildren.

Charles,

You’re ignoring some inconvenient facts. Baruch Goldstein reflected the mood within the religious settler movement and the NRP from which he sprang. His murderous rampage was greeted with praise from many in Israel, not least a good many Rabbis. Posters celebrating his act were plastered all over Jerusalem. Opinion polls showed support amongst Israelis at or around 50%. His funeral drew a huge crowd and an army escort. His grave is a shrine for many Zionists.

And the IDF officers planting car bombs. Were they acting alone, together as it were?

Yes, I support the right of the Palestinians to resist the illegal occupation of their land, much as I would have supported the right of the French and Czechs and others to resist Nazi occupation. I don’t support every act but I do recognise they have that right. That does not make me an anti-Semite as you imply and I am not.

It’s especially hypocritical of Zionists to refer to such resistance as terrorism and those who resist as thugs and the like. How did Israel come into existence? How did it gain it’s current borders (and incidentally, what are it’s current borders?). Was it through organising bring and buy sales? The Zionists seized land through violence and killed innocent off duty British soldiers, policemen and civil servants in the process. They even murdered the UN representative, who tried to negotiate a peace deal, because they were not interested in a peace deal until they had achieved their goals.

Now they scream because some Palestinians follow the same course.

Rather than just condemn Baruch Goldstein, why not understand the root causes of hatred of "muslim"s. If those that pray to the moon-god allah weren't such vile beasts, maybe there wouldn't be so many people who want to exterminate them. In short; either Islam humanizes, or Islam will be exterminated. While I don't look forward to the killing of a billion "people", it will happen if Islamonazism does not surrender now and pledge allegiance to humanity and not to their Satanic believe. The death cult will be exterminate!

"Europe comes as little suprise to those who know that cultures are generally very slow to change. It is sobering to reflect though that, in Europe's case, the wickedness of the grandparents has indeed been passed on to the grandchildren. "

Like Dr Goebbels you persist in the lie hoping it will be believed, even if in part. You breach our anti-discrimination laws, yet you continue in a madcap manner to malign Europeans. Well Charles, Europeans have no obligations to Israel above and beyond tthose to any other nation. There is absolutely nothing special about you, you personally seem to have limited intelligence, but noone would castigate a whole region or race for your limitations. We Europeans are sufficiently well-anchored to view your rantings as the product of a bitter and twisted mind, seeking to blame others for personal inadequacy. You are part of the great 'chip on my shoulder' grouping that thinks the World, or more specifically Europe, owes them a living......and frankly, this generation thinks you should seek therapy for your deficiency rather than expecting us to humour your childish demands to be absolved from responsibility for your failure to meet the moral standards of today.

"You breach our anti-discrimination laws..."

Quick, someone call the PCP (politically correct police)!

"You are part of the great 'chip on my shoulder' grouping that thinks the World, or more specifically Europe, owes them a living."

I have never seen Charles asking for money here. I imagine he makes his own living. Unlike countless Europeans who are satisfied to suck the teat of Mother State.

"and frankly, this generation thinks you should seek therapy..."

Romulus, Voice of a Generation! It must be exciting to speak for so many people. But a grave responsibility as well!

"...your failure to meet the moral standards of today."

Which are apparently drawn up by the Central Scrutinizers in Brussels. Yes, only Europe is fit determine what is moral and what is not - for everybody.

This isn't the first such report about life under the Palestinian Authority. It seems likely that most Palestinians had more freedom under Israeli occupation than they do now.

"The Law Student" -
you seem to have lifted your text from a Nazi pamphlet, and simply replaced words like "Jew" with counterparts such as "Muslim".

Oslo called for a certain number of PA policemen and light weapons only. The PA hardly drew a breath before they expanded the numbers far beyond the agreement and handed out much heavier weaponry than the agreed provided.

Israeli protests were for the most part simply ignored.

Well not actually true Alex but good try and why let facts get in the way of a prejudice, eh? Oslo did not "call" for anything, it was an agreement to certain things. The number of security personnel (not just police) and weaponry was agreed and adhered to throughout. Israel chose to destroy the PA infrastructure (police, other security apparatus, hospitals, universities, research institutes, civil records facicilites, schools, houses, an opthalmic institute etc.) as a form of collective punishment (cf Nazism) because it claimed that the PA had not done enough to crush Palestinian resistance/fight terrorism.

Which brings me back to my original point. Israel (rightly or wrongly) totally wrecks the Palestinian security apparatus and then Melanie Phillips lambasts the Palestinians for reverting to vigilante justice. How would she react if someone were to criticise the Jews because they did not have traffic wardens in the Warsaw ghetto?

It's illogical and ignorant and vile, like a great deal of what she has to say.

Brendan - give me Melanie's logic anytime! For example, the following article was written in 1996 (not by Melanie).

'Exceeding the Permissible Number of Policemen: The Gaza-Jericho accords of May 1994 limited the number of Palestinian policemen to 9,000 (Annex I, Art. III, 3), but during the period when the PA controlled these two areas they enrolled approximately 20,000 people in their security forces. The Interim Agreement expanded the PA's jurisdiction to additional parts of the West Bank and increased the number of policemen to 24,000 in Areas A and B, including Gaza (Annex I, Art. IV, 3). Already, however, the PA police have enlisted more than 30,000 men and perhaps as many as 40,000.'

You certainly have a talent for writing false statements (i.e. lies) in a convincing fashion. Whether this can be described as ignorant and vile, I'm not sure - I suppose depends on one's ability to have a civilised debate without insulting your opposition. I can't see any logic in repeating lies - but then as an obvious supporter of Arafat, Erekat, Ashrawi et al, you cannot help being an expert on creative mendacity.

Peter,

You would be right if you were not in fact wrong. In the Oslo agreements there were interim figures for security personnel. These figures were revised, by agreement, susbsequently. For details see, for example, "Shattered Dreams: The Failure of the Peace Process in the Middle East 1995-2002" by Charles Enderlin.

Good try, Peter, but could do better.

"Israel chose to destroy the PA infrastructure (police, other security apparatus, hospitals, universities, research institutes, civil records facicilites, schools, houses, an opthalmic institute etc.) as a form of collective punishment (cf Nazism) because it claimed that the PA had not done enough to crush Palestinian resistance/fight terrorism."

I do not believe the dismantling of institutions in the area described as the PA took place immediately after the Oslo Accords as your post implies.

What does it mean "collective punishment (cf Nazism) " ? I do not see the connection. If you suggest an army reacts harshly to terrorist attacks you cannot restrict yourself to the Wehrmacht; as you know the Nazi-Party troops were Waffen-SS under Himmler; but the partisans on the Eastern Front were also not very nice people, leaving captured soldiers in sub-zero conditions naked with their feet in buckets of water; or dismembering their living bodies.........I do not know how you expect troops to react.

Certainly, there is little point in being unworldly about such matters; for once we leave the classroom we find the life on the steeet is much harsher than Rawls ever let us to believe, and Hobbes looks like a sound social commentator.

It is hard to find fault with just one side, unless of course you are from the Hutton School of Legalism.

"Whether this can be described as ignorant and vile, I'm not sure - I suppose depends on one's ability to have a civilised debate without insulting your opposition."

While I admire your sangfroid, Peter, I myself have no inclination for such magnanimity towards my enemies.
Thus: Brendan, you're a vile mendacious gob of Jew-hating pus. Fuck off and rot in hell.

Heywood - I appreciate your support but not the unparliamentary langusge.
Brendan is probably not my enemy, but he is obviously supporting unprincipled and vicious people who are enemies of all Jews of whatever age.
The article that Melanie quoted initially includes the following observation on the Palestinian human rights leader - 'Despite his resentment of the Israelis, he has no illusions about the virtues of the Palestinians. He wondered aloud who was more to blame for Arafat's crimes: Arafat, or the populace that tolerates and even reveres him? He said Palestinians fall into three categories. Those who support the Arafat gang out of self-interest, those who are apathetic, and the rest, who are afraid to speak.'
Its ironic that Brendan evokes Nazism - a classic cheap Palestinian propaganda ploy - but this quote shows just how close Arafats thugocracy is to Nazi society.
And by the way, I don't accept Brendan's riposte on the size of the PA police force. Loads of writers have commented on its excessive size and its nature and the terrorists who populate and run it. I haven't checked out Charles Enderlin yet, but he probably has his own translation of comments like Nasser's 1967 promise to drive the Jews into the sea.
Melanie - you could see Brendan's determined opposition as recognition that you are in the top one or two people in the UK in a position to publically write and speak up for Israel in the face of the sheer destructive evil she is up against. I hope that you will continue to have the courage to do so.

Further to my comments about Charles Enderelin:
It looks as if his book 'Shattered Dreams etc.' is fairly well regarded, so my suggestion that Brendan had quoted a pro-Palestinian author is unfounded. However, that does not mean that Enderlin cannot be wrong in his analysis of the PA police force and its legality over Oslo and the following accords and agreements. The following text is from the Israeli Prime Minister's office, in a list of Palestinian violations of Oslo.

7. Recruiting Terrorists To Serve In The Palestinian Police
The PA is required to summit a list of all potential police recruits to Israel for approval (Annex I, Article IV(4)) to forestall the possibility that members of terrorist groups will join the PA security services. The PA has consistently failed to provide comprehensive listings of potential recruits to Israel and has proceeded to recruit policemen without prior Israeli consent. In several instances, the PA has drafted wanted terrorists to serve in the security forces. Abd al-Majid Doudin, who helped plan the suicide bombing in Jerusalem on August 21, 1995, was convicted and sentenced by a PA court to 12 years imprisonment, but was subsequently freed and hired by the Palestinian police in Jericho. Similarly, Rajah and Amr Abu-Sita, who murdered Uri Megidish on March 8, 1993 and whose extradition was requested by Israel, were drafted to serve in the PA police in Gaza, (Yediot Ahronot, June 24, 1994). Such steps by the PA endanger the prospects for cooperation between Israeli and Palestinian security forces and pose a security threat by providing terrorists with access to weapons and intelligence information.

8. Exceeding The Limit On The Number Of Palestinian Police
Under the Gaza-Jericho accord of May 1994, the PA was permitted to deploy a total of 9,000 policemen (Annex I, Article III(3)), but in actuality the number of Palestinian policemen was nearly 20,000. Under Oslo 2, the PA my deploy up to 24,000 policemen in Areas A and B, including Gaza, (Annex I, Article IV(3)), yet they have exceeded this figure by at least 10,0000. Reports in late September 1996 suggest that the PA security forces may exceed 50,000 men.