Will Mr Phillips break of from his hounding of Kilroy to look into this matter?
Or will the CRE look the other way on this one?

War waged against Israel for "more than half a decade ..."

Should that not be "more than half a century. . . "?

If a suicide bomber walks into Parliament and blows them all up, we'll all understand.

It is a pity that she couldn't have tempered her sympathy with a degree of insight, and perhaps a recognition that suicide bombing is unacceptable.

I see that Jenny Tonge is able to sympathise while simultaneously condemning:

cf:

"Richmond Park MP Jenny Tonge said: "Whilst I have considerable sympathy with the drivers, the withdrawal of this service was quite unacceptable. Some of my constituents had to walk for 20 minutes in the dark to reach their homes. I think what we need are bus marshalls. They would be a great deal more use than air marshals.""

...but perhaps she is only able to sympathise and condemn when the issue is very trivial indeed.

http://www.richmondandtwickenhamtimes.co.uk/news/localnews/display.var.452192.0.ham_estate_a_nogo_area_for_buses.php

No mention of the rampant incitement by Arafat-controlled media, education and mosque. ( See http://www.pmw.org.il/ )

I wonder who made sure she got back to the UK just in time to try to upstage National Holocaust Day?

Maybe one day when members of the Finsbury Park Mosque start self exploding on Oxford Street during the Christmas shopping rush she will change her mind.

Jenny Tonge's expression of sympathy for suicide bombers is contemptible and idiotic. But, reluctantly, I have to say that Melanie Phillips is wrong to call for her prosecution. That is precisely the road our illiberal liberals now take to shut their opponents up by (legal) force.

Now it is rightly illegal to incite or encourage terrorism. But that is not what Ms Tonge actually intended to do, as her weak attempt to backtrack did, to be fair, make clear. You might say her words will have that effect anyway, but that's not good enough. What the ignorant and murderous may make of what other people say - including fools like Ms Tonge - is something the latter would be well advised to consider, but it is wrong to hold them to account before the law for it. That is exactly what has gone wrong with our understanding of incitement to violence/terrorism/racialism and so on; we cannot allow the law to continue to be reinterpreted as outlawing anything which merely HAS THAT EFFECT on some people - for on those grounds just about anything could be deemed inciteful to something or other.

Explicit, intentional incitement to murder and maim is rather different, and if Ms Tonge has been guilty of that I would agree that she should be prosecuted. But it is possible to sympathise with a person's actions without necessarily agreeing with them - indeed, our humanity demands we be held accountable for even wrongs that are readily sympathised with. Now if she wants to express sympathy with terrorism while not condoning it, she is an idiot, but not herself a criminal. Sometimes the line is a blurred one, but surely a genuinely free and liberal society ought to give the benefit of the doubt in such cases.

However, what this story reveals about the double-standards of much of bien-pensant opinion in light of the treatment metted out to Robert Kilroy-Silk is extremely telling.

I was so shocked that a person who is an MP could even think,let alone publish, such shocking thoughts.
Would she like to see her friends and family blown up by a person who has been indoctrinated with hatred to such an extent?

I live in Jenny Tonge's Richmond Park. Her Liberal Democrats had dominated the council of the co-territorial London Borough of Richmond for 20+ years, before losing to the Conservatives last year, but the parliamentary seat had been Conservative-held marginal for some time into that period. I'm no Tory, but I liked the sitting MP Jeremy Hanley & exceptionally voted for him in 1992 (when he lost to Dr Tonge). Back then, I was generally sympathetic to the LibDems, so not too disappointed over Dr Tonge's victory. However, shortly after taking her seat Dr Tonge made a name for herself as a strong advocate of euthanasia. With the recent memory of my cancer-stricken late father clinging to his life despite great pain, & my mother an active supporter of the hospice movement, I've always disliked this cause (why do ‘right-on’ ultra-liberals always favour it? because religions like Catholicism & Judaism tend to oppose it?), & Dr Tonge's stance on it gained her no points with me.

Perhaps worse & more relevant to the current issue, I had a social encounter with a local LibDem activist & strong supporter of Dr Tonge's, who implied that she "had her ear". Within 5 minutes of first introduction to me, Mrs P had launched into a diatribe against (standard male) circumcision ("Why do WE continue to allow this barbaric practice?!"). She went on to single Michael Howard out as the big Tory villain. "Where does he get that accent from?", she demanded. When I answered "Llanelli" (Howard's accent is actually mild but has SWC Wales's characteristic clear L), she seemed to regard that answer as too mealy-mouthed to be worth replying to - for her, Howard has a "Jewish" accent, & this was worth stressing. Perhaps Dr Tonge represents not only the activist LibDems of Richmond & Barnes but their people as a whole. If so, I would understand better than I did at the time the surprise of the United Synagogue rabbi of nearby Hammersmith, when I told him that I personally knew 29 adult male Jews in Barnes - the area seems to have the reputation of being most Gentile (& antisemitic?) of London's "leafy green" suburbs.

Simon is exactly right.

For what good it will do, my letter to Tonge:

You are an imbecile. Not because you are a partisan supporting bloodthirsty savages, but because you are hopelessly ignorant about the genuine objectives and motivations of those who murder grandmothers and children on city buses.

You tap all the banal buzzwords that reveal your ignorance -- "poverty", "desperation", "humiliation" -- to justify the wanton killing of innocent civilians. So I ask, who is responsible for the poverty of the Palestinians?

Could their impoverished state be due to the billions of Euros in foreign aid systematically looted by their leaders to pad personal Swiss bank accounts? Could it be due to the fact that their guerilla groups use houses to smuggle weapons and shoot at families in adjoining gardens, after which these structures are demolished by the IDF? Could it be due to the fact that rather than invest the hundreds of millions of Euros they receive each year in agricultural projects, small business enterprises, and social services, they instead opt to purchase AK-47 rifles and semtex?

And who is responsible for the "desperation" of the Palestinians?

Could it be due to the fact that they have never accepted the existence of a Jewish state on 20% of the original Mandate? Could it be due to the fact that their leadership maintain in their Charters, a call for the genocide of the Jewish people, and this goal has been repeatedly frustrated? Could it be due to the fact that they are completely unwilling to accept the presence of Jews living in their territories while over one million Palestinian Arabs live as full citizens in Israel?

And who is responsible for the "humiliation" of the Palestinians?

Could it be due to the fact that their political and religious leaders indoctrinate them to feel humiliated because they have been unable to "liberate Palestine from the river to the sea"? Could it be due to the queues to enter Israel which have become necessary as a result of the bombings that have killed hundreds of innocents? Could it be due to the fact that they live in a shame-based culture that condemns compromise and reconciliation and condones murder and suicide?

Wake up Jenny. Before you open your mouth again on the ME conflict, read the charters of the PA, Hamas, and Hizbullah. Take a look at the school textbooks produced by the PA (with European funding). Watch the anti-Semitic propaganda broadcast continuously on Palestinian television, on Egyptian television, on Syrian television, on Iranian television. Consider the fact that 800,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries, their property and wealth confiscated. Consider the fact that the Arab effort to ethnically cleanse the ME of Jews has been going on for centuries, not just since 1967. Then, speak to me about "poverty", "desperation", and "humiliation.

likewise for what good it will do my letter to Ms Tonge

Dear Ms Tonge,
We thankfully live in a democratic society where we can freely express our views however as an MP you have a responsibility to give careful consideration to the effect that your views, aired publicly, will have. Your comments on Sky News show a total lack of middle east knowledge and understanding. The conflict between Israel and the Palestinians is, as we know terribly complex and tragic, but before airing such a controversial opinion it should be your duty to have full knowledge of the facts, the history, and the politics. However from your statement it is obvious that you do not have this information.

Your statement 'I perfectly understand their anger and distress and awful suffering', I would suggest that their is no way that without being an Israeli you can possibly understand their distress and suffering - how would you know how it feels to live under the constant threat of being murdered in the most horrific way, having your child blown into bits by bombs made up of nails and screws, or losing your son who has just given some consideration and respect to a female Palestinian, and for thanks, in return being blown to bits, as happened in the most recent suicide bombing. I suggest that you have no idea how that feels.

Your statement 'The Palestinians are suffering equally, and they have no army to defend them, that's the problem.' Lets not forget who started this intifada that bought about this situation in the first place, lets not forget that Yasser Arafat was offered everything he had asked for at the Oslo Peace accord, but he chose not to accept the chance of peace for his people. The Palestinians do not need defending, defending against whom? Have the Israelis ever gone in to deliberately murder any Palestinians? Have they ever launched an attack, which is within their capability to do so? No- they simply go in to target the people who they know have planned and carried out these atrocities against their own innocent civilians. The Palestinians are, and this is well documented, guilty of deliberately placing innocents, children, aid workers etc. where they know they may be in dangerous situations, because it all adds to their well oiled propaganda war.

Your statement, 'attacked on a daily basis by bulldozers', it is a known fact that the Israelis will bulldoze the house of a known suicide bomber, for which the family of the suicide bomber is well compensated. The families of suicide bombers are paid large amounts by people who have it in their interests to keep the conflict going and are sworn enemies of Israel. Bulldozers v bombs, is that a fair contest? How does one make peace with a people who are committed to the destruction of Israel and refuse to recognize its existence.

Israel wants nothing more than peace for its citizens, and they have to do everything in their power to protect them, just as any other country would.
I therefore suggest Ms. Tonge that you go and do your research and when you have a better understanding of the situation you may make comment which is both informed and helpful, rather than adding to the already efficient Palestinian propaganda machine.
There can never be any excuse for the premeditated murder of innocents, not in the past, the present or the future, NEVER. There CAN BE NO excuse for terrorism there is always another way and in the civilized world we have to find that way.

Dr Tongue's remarks are the worst kind of damaging 'me-me-me' posturing by someone who confuses her own irrelevant 'feelings' about 'how I would behave if...' (as if she could really KNOW!) with the complex reality of what motivates other people to undertake these disgusting killings.

If the silly woman spent time trying to genuinely understand the real reasons she would discover that
they usually comprise a combustible mixture of 1) genuine strife that is leading to social chaos 2)an evil and/or sick individual who is prepared to kill innocent people and 3) an extreme ideology that gives justification and reward to suicide bombers that is promoted by other sick/evil ruthless people and that regards people (Israelis and Palestians) as totally dispensable.

Why on earth would Dr Tongue single out as the object of her vicarious imaginings the tiny percentage of those Palestinians who would actually choose to kill rather than those moderate and patient ones (the huge majority) who are doing their best on a daily basis in appalling situation for civilians on BOTH sides?

Because she is blinded by her own self-regard.

What Dr Tongue has done is to place her own irrelevant feelings ahead of saying or doing something genuinely constructive - the former being the easy, self-regarding option and the latter being the more difficult and altruistic option.

Her 'me-me-me'-ism is a dramatic example of the self-important yet self-delusional mindset of certain 'concerned' leftists who say and do things purely to make themselves feel better even when the results of their actions are based on a total misunderstanding of the actual socio-psychology of a particular situation and when their actions not only do not help but make matters worse.

If so many other politicans on the left were not so far up their own silly backsides they would be able to see her comments for exactly what they were and would respond to her with the derision she deserves. Fat chance!

Simon is exactly correct in his assertions.

Who can be surprised that the despicable Guardian newspaper has come out in support of Dr. Tongue?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A necessary argument

Leader
Saturday January 24, 2004

The Guardian

Killing people is wrong. Full stop. But it is clearly also sometimes possible to understand why people do it. On occasion, though without ever condoning the killing, it is even possible to sympathise with what drove them to it. As a poll over Christmas by the Today programme showed, a large number of people in this country think they understand why the Norfolk farmer Tony Martin killed the burglar who broke into his house. Many of them - including several MPs - even think he was right to do it. We disagree with them. But that does not mean that Mr Martin's supporters are outside the bounds of civilised debate, or that any MP who speaks up for Mr Martin should be treated like a parliamentary leper.
Exactly the same argument applies to Jenny Tonge, the Liberal Democrat MP, whose comments on Palestinian suicide bombers triggered such a predictable furore yesterday. What she said was this, as reported: "This particular brand of terrorism, the suicide bomber, is truly born out of desperation. Many many people criticise, many many people say it is just another form of terrorism, but I can understand and I am a fairly emotional person and I am a mother and a grandmother. I think if I had to live in that situation, and I say this advisedly, I might just consider becoming one myself. And that is a terrible thing to say."

It is indeed. Dr Tonge does not condone suicide bombings, as she made clear at the time and again yesterday. Her comments were also carefully framed. They were sensitive, up to a point, about the issues involved. Many people, especially those with experience of the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West Bank, will agree with her, though that is not in itself a justification, just as others are appalled by what she seems to imply. What is beyond doubt is such views are an unavoidable fruit of a bitterly controversial issue. In that sense she was right to stand by her comments yesterday. What she said may have struck many as wrong, but that does not justify her dismissal from her party's frontbench, or the sweeping condemnation in which some of her critics too hastily indulged yesterday.

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/libdems/comment/0,9236,1130248,00.html

"Sometimes the line is a blurred one, but surely a genuinely free and liberal society ought to give the benefit of the doubt in such cases."

Only, it seems, where those who are being murdered are Jews.

1933 Berlin
1939 Warsaw
1944 Budapest
2004 London

How little things have changed in a Europe that collaborated wholesale with the German and Austrian armies and governments in the murder of the vast majority of Jews living in that accursed place.

Well spoken Simon. Saying you understand why a criminal commits crime is not in itself a crime, abhorrent as it may be to some.

Anyone like to comment on the Martin analogy?

As Stefan Sharkansy says on his blog:

"The only thing the suicide bombers are desperate about is to ethnically cleanse the Jewish minority out of the Middle East. If Jenny Tonge understands this desperation, I can only wonder which of Britain's ethnic minorities she is desperate to exterminate."

Paul, you ignorant slut. Did you take a poetry class with Tom Paulin? Can I suggest that because you are ignorant and empathise with those who condone and commit murder, that you are fair game? That it would be perfectly reasonable and understandable if someone traced your IP address and blew your fricking brains out? Would that suit your narrow and twisted view of illegality? Or is it only PC to condone the murder of Jews?

Charles seems to be confused - How can Tony Martin shooting a burgler be the smae as blowing up inocent people. If Tony Martin, after being burgled strapped explosive to himself and set it off in a crowded market place then that would be different.

How aren't suicide bombers attempting to protect their people too?

No, I didn't take a class with Tom Paulin. I didn't say I empathised with murderers. I said, saying that you understand why they did it is NOT a crime. And that applies to Jews and non-Jews. Understanding why Saddam had to go, in spite of collateral damage, or why Israel has to bomb terrorist targets even if there are non-combatants is NOT a crime either. You may disagree but it isn't a crime.
And assuming that people who disagree with you are ignorant, and that you are the sole repository of knowledge is nothing but pathetic

And if someone traced my IP address and blew my frigging brains out as you so charmingly put it,YES, that would be a crime

Yeah, but when they aren't even terrorist targets, but by some unfortunate coinicidence the fromer home of a suicide bomber, now full of innocent people trying to deal with grief and anger and a lack of understanding, and the Israelies are doing it in full knowledge that it won't stop anything, or anyone, but simply show their might, how is this not the same as a terrorist action carried about by Arabs? Because they're Arabs? Because that isn't a racist view? Please, show me you're not.

Paul, get a clue. If I encouraged someone to trace your IP address and murder you, I would be committing a crime. Tonge's comments -- that she "understands" why suicide bombers murder and that if she were a Palestinian, she too would be a suicide bomber -- amount to INCITEMENT TO MURDER. Now do you get it?

So Jenny Tonge MP can understand why young men would join the Waffen-SS after living through the instability of Weimar........or perhaps she can understand why Lieut. William Calley felt revulsion at the torturing of GIs and 'lost it' in My Lai....... she is so understanding and knows that she might feel tempted......can she empathise with Irma Griess also ?

Or is she only able to empathise with one particular type of murderer, with one particular cause, and justify only one particular frustration as the inspiration to indiscriminate murder ?

I agree with everything in this post said except that the war has been waged for more than half a century rather than half a decade.

"Anyone like to comment on the Martin analogy? "

Civilization is only possible if the overwhelming majority of people can tell the difference between right and wrong. If two thirds of the population thought burglary and armed robbery were perfectly acceptable, modern society could not exist. (You might like to read up on the history of the Thugs in India).
In fact, the law requires that citizens know the difference between right and wrong; those who clearly don't are classed as criminally insane.
The Tony Martin highlighted a problem with modern Britain, discussed in the Sunday Times over the last two weeks - the Criminal Justice system has been taken over by people with no moral compass, who regard burglars actively engaged in breaking and entering as having the same "rights" as an old lady walking down the street.
Jenny Tonge's remarks demonstrate the same blindness. If she really thinks that she might feel inclined to blow herself up in a restaurant if she were a Palestinian, she is, in fact, criminally insane.

WOW - lots of spleen-venting on this subject.
I just wonder whether the views of these Dr Tonge bashers would be the same after spending a few days amongst real Palestinians in the Israeli-created reservations/ghettos.

Just a thought ....

I'd like to think not, PD, but then no one here has actually even tried to say that they're not being incredably, disgustingly racist in this matter. I'm not sure irrational prejudice can be changed by living with the constant threat of tanks running over your small children, or missle attacks blowing you and 25 other people up just because you were too close to a car.

"blowing you and 25 other people up just because you were too close to a car"

Don't you mean "blowing you and 25 other people up just because you were on a bus, or in a restaurant" ?

Why can't I think both are terrible? Why, if I think blowing up innocent, oppressed Palestinians is wrong, can't I also think blowing up innocent, although tacitly oppressing Israelies is also wrong? Because for your information, I do.

There's a "LibDem Briefing" website

http://mysite.freeserve.com/libdembriefing/ldbrhome.htm

aimed at Christians (apparently not recently updated as many of the newspaper links have expired).

Presumably many moderate Muslims (ie not the Islamofascist extremist nutter sort) or Jews would agree with many of the moral sentiments expressed there.

The parting statement "As Britain's third party, the Lib Dems have not received as much scrutiny from the media as Labour or the Conservatives. However, that does not excuse us, as Christians, from our duty to investigate very carefully the beliefs of any party we might support at the ballot box" is something that all people should take seriously whether religious or not.

"Why can't I think both are terrible? Why, if I think blowing up innocent, oppressed Palestinians is wrong, can't I also think blowing up innocent, although tacitly oppressing Israelies is also wrong? Because for your information, I do."

funny you didn't mention it until someone called you on it.