Does the House of Commons have the right to give away its own power without consulting the public?
I suggest that it does not; if an Act to sign up to the Constitution is not defeated in Parliament, the Queen should refuse the Royal Assent until there is a referendum.

GrimReaper is quite correcy - Sovereignty cannot be given up by Parliament as it does not reside in them it is not theirs it belongs to the British people. By signing up to this constitution the head of state is taken away from the Queen and given to a European President. If Tony Blair signs up to the constitution then he is in fact betraying his country and the Queen.
"The Monarch is the manifestation of the People's sovereignty. If that sovereignty is surrendered, the Monarch's role as Sovereign is extinguished."
http://www.baronage.co.uk/bphtm-01/const-01.html

The German Constitution forbids delegation of sovereignty........it has been studiously ignored by the political class.

The Greens want a referendum across Europe on the EU Constitution.

THe bare-knuckle fight inside Europe is taking place. Whatever happens France wants Germany tied down like Gulliver in Lilliput....it has a now untiul Schroeder is toppled. Angela Merkel will swing to an Atlanticist position.......so Chirac needs Germany under permanent French control quickly.

If Blair sells out Britain he makes this easier. We should not acceptFrance and Germany building a bloc against us - they did so in 1940 - we should encircle Germany with close ties to Poland, Czech Republic, Spain and Moscow.....it is time Britain had diplomacy instead of Blair's sycophancy

it has a now a window until Schroeder is toppled

"We should not acceptFrance and Germany building a bloc against us - they did so in 1940 - we should encircle Germany with close ties to Poland, Czech Republic, Spain and Moscow.....it is time Britain had diplomacy instead of Blair's sycophancy.. ."

Oh, divide and conquer, that is the Muslim objective.

On this side of the Atlantic the administration is doing its part to be even more divisive.

"Pentagon Bars Three Nations From Iraq Bids"

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/10/international/middleeast/10DIPL.html?th

WASHINGTON, Dec. 9 — The Pentagon has barred French, German and Russian companies from competing for $18.6 billion in contracts for the reconstruction of Iraq, saying it was acting to protect "the essential security interests of the United States." . . ."

Cutting the noses off to spite the faces—very effective. ;-)

I can see you all now with turbans and beards, your women in shroud-like abayas or better yet, paying that dhimmi poll tax. LOL

Lili

I am totally against any further accomodation/unification/harminisation.. call it what you will, with Europe. Particularly I am against the acceptance of the euro. If we join their currency, we eventually accept their economy and political union. Europe, in my estimation has a poor democratic record. Look at Italy (Mussolini)Spain (Franco) Portugal (Salazar). All recent Fascist states, and Germany !!! I there rest my case.

Lilith you would probably look splendid in a chadoor ! We would of course have the old question people pose about Scotsmen in kilts......

The Euro is a dead duck for Britain. There is talk of exchange controls being imposed in the EU, I suppose on the lines of the Swiss negative interest rates "Bardepot tax" I think it was called in Germany. This is to stop appreciation of the Euro, but it would make London as a Forex centre very interesting.

Actually Lilith, this game is more dangerous...Germany has a weak Chancellor and France has a very clumsy President who is trying to lock Germany into French orbit......and the explosion will be big as Germany revolts. This German Government has 16% approval.....and when Angela Merkel becomes the first woman to lead Germany, the tilt away from France will be significant which is why France is pushing so hard now.....Schroeder will be lucky to last 12 months.....this selling of atomic MOX facilities to China is not a big hit with the Greens, and agreeing with Chirac to lift the EU Arms Embargo on China is lunacy.

Beneath the surface these manoeuvrings are not unlike those in 1930.....and the faultlines for fresh European difficulties are being laid

"GrimReaper is quite correcy - Sovereignty cannot be given up by Parliament as it does not reside in them it is not theirs it belongs to the British people."

WRONG ! The Bill of Rights in Britain is for the rights of parliament, not people. In Britain Parliament is Sovereign not the People; and Parliament is both Houses plus the Queen in Parliament.

The power of a British Parliament is absolute and it can pass retrospective legislation, and pass any law it wishes....only the European Treaties act as a restraint. The Parliament could make all judges subservient to Parliament by Statute if it so wished........nowhere in British history has The People been sovereign: the concept does not exist.

"The power of a British Parliament is absolute and it can pass retrospective legislation, and pass any law it wishes....only the European Treaties act as a restraint."

That's a self contradiction. If the power of Parliament is absolute, it can repeal or repudiate any Treaty commitment. If European Treaties overrule the wishes of Parliament, the United Kingdom is no longer a sovereign state.

Formally, we always refer to "Her Majesty's Government" and to the dissolution of Parliament every 4 or 5 years "by the Queen". If the current crop of MPs sees fit to give away British sovereignty without popular consent, the Queen is surely entitled (and morally required) to dismiss them.

The Queen cannot dissolve Parliament - such powers under the "royal prerogative" passed to the Prime Minister with the'consent' of the monarch he exercises them. In the same way Parliament has no say in declarations of war, it is an "Order in Council' in The Privy Council.

In a real sense any Parliament can undo its predecessor......just as in the 18th Century an incoming administration could pass an Act of Attainder against its predecessor.....but no longer does so.

Labour never revoked the North Atlantic Treaties forming NATO; and international agreements are usually safer than domestic ones, simply because the International Politicians Union likes to look good among friends, and despise their own peoples.

Thatcher could amend all the pension contracts on the earnings-link without discussion, but you will not find a government breaching a contract with a PFI provider as this is a 'commercial contract' and is sacrosanct.

GrimReaper.....I state the legalistic position, but like much of this it is a fig-leaf to cover political will. Blair ignores the Constitution and plays with Judiciary and Lords; Thatcher did it by abolishing the GLC after her plans to over-turn the election and appoint her own councillors were deemed illegal.

Where else could a Central Govt abolish the Council in its capital city ?

"Lilith you would probably look splendid in a chadoor ! We would of course have the old question people pose about Scotsmen in kilts......"

Ah,no, Romy! My kind of garment is a sari—much sexier and prettier. I like color and form. The kilt is much too immodest for a Muslim. The faithful men can't even wear Western shorts because these look too much like Islamic undies. ;-)

In all seriousness, not that the above issue is not serious—I am against the EU, much for my own selfish reasons, such as loss of individual, cultural identity for the European countries that I love to visit. However, why doesn't Europe (well some people) want such a union? It works in the US. Of course, we don't have thousands of years of differences.

Lili

"In a real sense any Parliament can undo its predecessor......just as in the 18th Century an incoming administration could pass an Act of Attainder against its predecessor.....but no longer does so."

At some point in the transition to a European Superstate, this must cease to be the case. Parliament would lose the power to repudiate European commitments, just as the Scottish parliament has no power to repeal the Act of Union.
Is it acceptable that this should happen without a referendum? Would it be constitutional?
I submit that the Queen is the ultimate guardian of British sovereignty; by refusing the Royal Assent, she could prevent the perverse ambition of Tony Blair from bringing about the loss of that sovereignty.

The Queen cannot refuse Royal Assent because to do so would be to oppose the Will of the House of Commons which since the time of Oliver Cromwell has been a bad idea.

The fact is that pressure must be applied to elected representatives who will cease to be if things go on. Poland at least is standing up for itself rather than be dominated by Germany again.

If Turkey joined the EU it would have a very big say over the Courts, Laws, Workplaces etc in BRitain......the EU will/must break apart......people in Europe want to work, trade and play together......but politicians want to build a new state......and judging by Germany and France it would spend its time as a spoiler working against Anglo-American interests.

The basis of political legitimacy is different - Germans think of Kelsen's Grundnorm and the British think of political legitimacy through acceptance and Common Law. Unfortunately, the oldest nation states are England, Scotland, Wales, Poland, France......and the modern ones like Germany hae a mechanical rather than an organic political structure; and the EU is being driven by a need to homogenise and create 'Gleichschaltung' where everything flows from the centre and like the German phrase "Trust is Good, Control is better"...it will be like Gordon Brown running everything from his desk with targets and norms across Europe.

The resistance to the EU and its pretensions can onlky be political....at the end of the day legality is a smokescreen for power.

"If Turkey joined the EU it would have a very big say over the Courts, Laws, Workplaces etc in BRitain......the EU will/must break apart......people in Europe want to work, trade and play together......but politicians want to build a new state......and judging by Germany and France it would spend its time as a spoiler working against Anglo-American interests."

I certainly agree with that.

Thankfully Poland has no wish to be dominated by Germany for a fourth time !

If Germany likes population-based voting....would they accept this when Russia joins the EU; or favour it at the UN so China and India can allow their values to permeate.........it is interesting that federal states within Germany have almost no autonomy

It is wise to apply the oil of refined politeness to the mechanisms of friendship.