These Israelis think they are expressing a form of peace-loving Zionism based on the socialism of the original founders of the Jewish state!Everything they do is idealistic and well-meant in the spirit of Judaism,as we Jews are the original pacifists,having invented the concept under the Prophets.However the Arabs obviously do not have the same agenda!!And for the umpteenth time Jews are giving them the benefit of the doubt!This helps neither the Jews nor the Arabs who as a result of overwhelming Jewish transigence have no choice but to be led into an even greater state of evil.When will this spiralling farce of madly mutual misunderstandings
finally end?When Israel no longer exists?Or when the world finally accepts that the sole Jewish state of Israel ,along with its welcome and democratically free non-Jewish minority, is not a luxury ,but the division of the Arab world into a plurality of twenty two exclusively Muslim states probably is?

Those Isrealis who support what Beilin did in Geneva are such a tiny minority that figuratively speaking they can all car pool with Shimon Peres. It is a small lunatic fringe in no way representing what the majority of Jewish Israelis believe. Unfortunately the media will make a bid deal out this but it will go absolutley nowhere. Total separation is the immediate short term answer. Let the Palestinians stew in their own juices on the other side of the fence.

The suicidal nature of Socialism should be clear to any observer of this scene. We hope (and indeed we are starting to see) the tremendous hatred shown toward the genocidal Left for their policies erupting into violence. The pictures of ordinary Iraqis beating the Leftists to death at the end of the war should be a template for how Leftists in America and in Israel should expect to be punished.
This lunatic fringe of genocidal Communists needs to be warred against as passionately as we war against the Nazislamists.

For decades Israel has been increasingly demonised. Recently there is a sense in the UK and USA media that something's wrong with this picture (eg the Guardian lately). Blogs have something to do with this. Lazy thinking is exposed to a more democratic critique than in an edited letters page. I hope Israel is encouraged that intelligent opinion is swinging its way. Appeasement feeds the beast and does nothing to win opinion round. Consistent severity towards murderers does win opinion round, the more so as the West's own insecurity grows.

In ten years from now the word "Palestinians" will be as irrelevant and outmoded as words such as "Amalekites","Scythians","Hyksos","Assyrians","Babylonians","Spartans","Philistines(the original Palestinians)""Egyptians","Jordanians","Syrians","Romans","Hellenes",etc.etc.There are two tribes living in the Middle-East.The people of Israel and the people of Arabia.The God of History gave the tiny land of Israel(the size of Wales) to the Jews and anyone else who law-abidingly happens to be living there,and to the Arabians he gave the rest,an area equivalent to over three times the size of Europe.
At the moment there are approximately a couple of hundred Jews still surviving in this vast expanse of Arabian territory while the land of Israel accommodates Arabians in their millions.This desperately unfair state of affairs will eventually be equalised by either the Arabians accepting Jews living amongst them on a similar scale on their virtually infinitely vast tract of territory stretching from the Indian ocean(if one includes the Iranians)to the Atlantic or by the Jews,if they continue to be rejectd by their behemoth of a neighbour,not accepting those Arabians who presently live in uniquely democratic conditions amongst them upon that self-same tiny strip of land called Israel bordering the Mediterranean shore.

How long before British and American lefties organise a "peace conference" with Al-Qaeda?

Maybe this will be of interest in this discussion:
http://www.spacewar.com/2003/031204201200.a0ovury5.html
Geneva Initiative risks "liquidating" Palestinian cause: Hezbollah
BEIRUT (AFP) Dec 04, 2003
The Lebanese Shiite fundamentalist movement Hezbollah attacked on Thursday the Geneva Initiative for peace in the Middle East, saying the alternative peace plan risked legitimising the "liquidation" of the Palestinian cause.

"A Palestinian group has dared to sell off the sacred principles of the Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims in their main cause, without any excuse or justification," Hezbollah said.

And there is this as well:
http://www.spacewar.com/2003/031205130523.dqt9swng.html
Geneva peace plan protestors set light to Swiss flag in West Bank
NABLUS (AFP) Dec 05, 2003

Effigies of the chief Palestinian negotiator Yasser Abed Rabbo and his Israeli counterpart Yossi Beilin were set on fire as well as the red and white national emblem of Switzerland. The American Stars and Stripes flag was also torched.

It seems impossible for outsiders to appreciate that with the Arabs, and Palestinians in particular, one is dealing with a people who have a totally different mindset to that which the West is used to. It is a form of logic (If there is any logic)that is alien to us and really inxplicable to those raised in a western, democratic society.

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

Melanie, sweetheart.
You write a column for a newspaper which - if memory serves - was for appeasement with the Nazis. Today it puts forward scare-mongering pieces about asylum-seekers and single-mothers. The Daily Mail is the worst of the worst when it come to being insidious.
Your columns in the JC are an exercise in paranoia. Malicious and hateful.

You live in Britain, not Israel. Let the Israelis do some soul-searching as to why there is so much hostility toward them and those Jews who seem to forget that they are not Israel's representatives. Maybe, just maybe, they will come to the conclusion that Vice-Premier Ehud Olmert has - viz, that Israel should leave most if not all of the territories and dismantle the settlements.

The ongoing war that the Arabs have undertaken on Israel is not about land but simply a Jihad. Its goal is the conquest of the Holy land and Jerusalem by force. No amount of appeasement with land will satisfy the Arabs. In this Jihad it is 'all or nothing'.

And in the obsession with 'all or nothing', the Arabs will soon find, that they get nothing. This generally has been the case in history.

Mr. Gleebitz neglects the fact that the Israelis came to occupy Judea and Samaria because several Arab states tried to destroy Israel in 1967. If the Arabs had not done this there would have been no occupation. Arab attempts to destroy Israel have nothing to do with the occupation since they predate that. Israel's occupation resulted from the Arabs' own malevolence, stupidity, and incompetence.

The Palestinian Arabs do not want their own state living at peace next to Israel. They want to destroy Israel and take over the whole land. As long as they take this attitude no negotiations can succeed; it is all in the hands of the Arabs if there will be peace or war, and they have chosen, and continue to choose, war.

Why is there so much hostility towards the Israelis and the other Jews? It is because they are Jews. Jews are the automatic target for hatred by many people, especially the losers of this world. Soul searching is not needed. Again, this hatred antedates 1967 and indeed the establishment of Israel. Mr. Gleebitz could easily verify this fact if he wished.

These people at Geneva live in Cloud Cuckoo Land. Why are some of us, non-Israelis and sometimes non-Jews, so concerned about this? It is because some of us do not want to see the Arabs finish the job Hitler started. That is the real stakes in this matter.

Excellent plan, Dan. Definetly soul-searching is in order for Israelis. Why are they being demonized? Must be their fault!

So, why are asylum-seekers being demonized by the Daily Mail? -- Aha! Must be their fault!
What about single mothers? -- Their fault, too! Soul-searching time for them!
Dan thinks Melanie is "malicious and hateful". Whose fault? -- Melanie's!
I think Dan is just not very bright, poor thing. Whose fault? -- Dan's!

This is great fun. Thanks, Dan!

Melanie, you got some facts wrong:

The geneva agreeemnt says:

iii. Option iv [right of return of Palestinians to Israel] shall be at the sovereign discretion of Israel and will be in accordance with a number that Israel will submit to the International Commission. This number shall represent the total number of Palestinian refugees that Israel shall accept. As a basis, Israel will consider the average of the total numbers submitted by the different third countries to the International Commission.

In other words Israel can choose how many will resettle in Israel be it 10 or 1,000,000.

For me a bigger issue is the repsonsibilty Israel has for comepsation bearing in mind the land given to Israel by the UN / Britian...

Absoluely on target, duke. The Israelis bear the responsibility for compensating each and every Palestinian refugee who left Israel in 1948 for whatever reason. Until they do this the quest for justice remains unsatisfied and without condoning suicide bombing one must understand why people are driven to such extremes.

My only criticism of your suggestion is that it doesn't go far enough. Israeli compensation should be part of an international framework that settles all such problems that arose out of post-World War II dislocations.

As the Israelis compensate the Palestinians, let the Indians and Pakistanis compensate their former residents who fled during the partition. The Czechs and Poles must also compensate Germans who left their territory. For that matter, after Gulf War II the Kuwaits drove out 300,000 Palestinians, many of whom left property behind. And of course, the Arab nations must compensate the Jews who left their countries in the immediate aftermath of Israel's independence. And so forth.

This is not only right, it's pragmatic. Otherwise the Sudeten Germans who are still festering in refugee camps a half century after the war's end will turn to airplane hijacking, suicide bombing, murdering Olympic athletes, and all the other actions that mark the Palestinians. Look at the wave of Tibetan terrorism China's policies have unleashed.

Why does someone posting a song by John Lennon make me cringe ? Each time I see/hear those lyrics I think of Pol Pot and the Khmer Rouge...for that is just the world they built Mr Lennon.

Gleebitz is glib in his criticism of Jews and Israelis.
The reality seems to be this:
"Hamburg - Hamas spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed
Yassin has again rejected the continued existence
of Israel next to an independent Palestinian
state, telling a German news magazine a Jewish
state could be established in Europe."
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/368956.html

A lot of you people who keep questioning Israel's right to live keep ignoring this fact, Israel has 400 nukes and many are offshore, so either Israel will survive, or Israel and the rest of the world will not. Ponder that thought!

Duke - whether you like it or not, some of the land that is currently Israel was originally bought from the Arabs. It was swampland and ithe Jews brought the Arabs in to help drain the land, they gave the Arabs employment, that's why so many migrated there in the first place. Parts of what is now currently Israel were completely uninhabitable.

IF the Palestinians wanted their own state they should have said so in 1948.

Another fact that most people have neglected is the 900,000 Jews who were expelled from Arab countries... for years, under the Ottoman Empire, and after, Jews had been persecuted, publicly hung because they were Jewish, had all their lands, businesses and properties stolen from them... they were only allowed to leave their homes with a total of $200.

The Jews of Iraq could trace their history back to Nebuchadnezzar, all the Arab Jews had over a thousand years history in the places of their birth, but they were still expelled and the world stayed silent.

I wonder why? The transfers of populations were never written, but there was an agreement that the Arab countries would take the displaced Arabs from Palestine... of course they reneged on the agreement.

So what's left are refugees, originally from Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Lebanon, etc., the majority of whose ancestors migrated to Israel to find paid employment.

Therefore, if the Palestinians are entitled to compensation, so are the Arab Jews - of whom nearly all have the title deeds to their properties and business as well as bank records. A multi trillion dollar payout would compensate these mostly wealthy families who were expelled, because the poorer Jews couldn't afford to leave.

All,

Forgice me but I think you have grabbed the wrong end of the stick... My comment was firstly to highlight an error in Melanie's comments - Israel does have control over the number of Palestinians who will be able to resttle in Israel, according the the Geneva agreement

My comment about compensation was one of surpise that Israel should be responsible for comepnsation - this could bankroupt the state regardless of its fairness. I was expecting to see in the agreement that the UN / G7 countires or even the UK (who made this mess in the first place) to pay the comepesation money.

As for the comments on Iraqi Jews being compensatated I agree with the point but this is not in the Geneva accords (but prehaps shoud be) so was not relvant to my post.

". . .Israel does have control over the number of Palestinians who will be able to resttle in Israel, according the the Geneva agreement"

Duke, could you explain how? Everything points to them not having that control.

Compensation won't bankrupt the state if ONLY the few thousand who were displaced instead of their MILLIONS of descendants are compensated and given the right of return. Let the Arabs cough up as well. They, more than anyone, are responsible for the plight of the Palestinians. A good precedent is how the former East Germany dealt with those who had their land confiscated by the Commies and then got it back after the fall of the wall.

"As for the comments on Iraqi Jews being compensatated I agree with the point but this is not in the Geneva accords (but prehaps shoud be) so was not relvant to my post."

What's good for the goose. . . always seems to be seen as "racism" and "bigotry" against the Arabs.

Lili

Read the Geneva asccord to understand why I felt that Irsael controls the numbers resetling inside israel... It says avergages will be used as guidance, but final figures remain with israel..

Bankcrupcy and comesation... well if we assume 400,000 were displaced from 48 -67 (A much quoted figure) and assume all of these had houses, and a house in israel no is worth around $300,000 thats a lot of money..

As for final final point on Iraqui Jews and comepsation I was commenting on the agrrement negioated, not what ele could have been in the agreement...