"The Archbishop's extraordinary remarks are exactly the kind of demented paranoid fantasy being pumped out by Arab propaganda demonising Israel and the Jews. They are an absolute disgrace to the Church -- but sadly, not atypical of the attitude to the Middle East displayed by many Christian clerics, which amounts to nothing less than ahistorical, ignorant and prejudiced incitement of hatred towards the Jewish state."

Exactly!

The Arabs lost! When has the victor ever given back the spoils?

The spoils of war are a big deal in Islam. There is a whole chapter with 75 verses on the spoils of war in the Qu'ran:

Translations of the Qur'an, Chapter 8:

AL-ANFAL (SPOILS OF WAR, BOOTY)

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/008.qmt.html#008.068

Total Verses: 75
Revealed At: MADINA
---------------------

However, I would not exactly call Israel a "secular" state. After all, it is a Jewish state, but with a division of religion and politics. Nevertheless, the Israelis need to make some concessions when it comes to the settlements or there will never be peace.

Has anyone checked into where the Archbishop might be getting funding?

Just a thought. . .

Lili

Not greatly impressed by the intellectual calibre of Churchmen in the Anglican Church, I find myself wondering if "as the Rev Jeremy Fordwell and Pat Robertson, wrote to The New York Times " is anything like Jerry Falwell ?

I do not recognise his distortion of Zionism; but I think he was trying to make a point and wanted to link Zionism with 1967; which strikes me as perverse.

I find the notions that Christians adopted the Old Testament as the first part of their Bible to be bizarre. Jesus Christ was a Jew; as such the Torah and the Tanach was his history; and much of what he said in the New Testament was merely restatements of traditional positions in the Old Testament.

Therefore the Old Testament is The Bible, and the New Testament is the interpretation for Christians...they are not really separate books and I wonder if this weird construction he attempts to make is part of this dubious "Replacement Theory" favoured by some wacko theologians.

I have read much of this piece by Morgan and I feel he has squeezed facts into a thesis and these facts look very uncomfortable in his strat-jacket. I do not think he hasd made the obvious point.........it is a long time since Christianity of Judaism operated a theocracy; but Islam has failed to develop this split.

Therefore Cardinal Richelieu blended Church and State, as did the Pope; but the Test & Corporation Acts in England allowed commercial power to rise outside the Established Church.....and politics and religion diverged.

I do not know what this Archbishop is trying to say, but it looks like he will get himself into a mess rather like his predecessor who is hoist with his own petard at Canterbury

"Has anyone checked into where the Archbishop might be getting funding?"

Church of Wales I expect. Stop looking for ulterior motives Lilith. He is just misguided, but I doubt he is paid by the Court of King Fahd.

http://www.churchinwales.org.uk/archbishop/

"Church of Wales I expect. Stop looking for ulterior motives Lilith. He is just misguided, but I doubt he is paid by the Court of King Fahd."

Yeah, the Saudis tell us that the terrorists are "misguided" young men who are either brainwashed or bewitched. (Most probably by the "Zionist entity".)

Well, the Saudis have their fingers in so many pies. They have almost singlehandedly funded and exported Islamic world terrorism via Wahhabism. Think it might be worth a check into whether there have been any "contributions" to Wales "charity" by the Saudis. ;-) Of course, the laundering part might be tough to follow. Cash is traceless.

Lili

You cast aspersions without evidence. Better to look at the US State Department and how easily they are bought by the Saudis.....after all it was the Consulate in SAudi that issued visas to all comers.

The Archbishop is misguided, but I doubt you could buy him in any way......he probably believes what he says, I think he is misguided. You Lilith seem to see the worst motives in every action

"You Lilith seem to see the worst motives in every action"

As opposed to those good, wholesome motives for sladering Jews, Israelis and Zionists with some ahistorical clap-trap.

I'd rather the good doctor was in the pay of someone like the Saudis (though of course he is not). It's easier to understand than the motivation to just invent some sh*t to make sure the appropriate parties get the blame.

The Archbiship not only is ignorant of the Bible, he's also truly ignorant of historical facts!

":You cast aspersions without evidence. Better to look at the US State Department and how easily they are bought by the Saudis.....after all it was the Consulate in SAudi that issued visas to all comers."

I asked a question. No harm in checking is there or is there? As to "aspersions" you had better go to the noble Archbishop for those. He has cast plenty against the Jews. Ask him how many more innocent Israelis should be blown up in pizza parlors? Ask him how he plans to de-program millions of Palestinian youth who have been taught since infancy that terror is good.

As to the visa issue. Perhaps the UK and the EU should look at who permitted whom into the land. You appear to have enough visa and illegal alien issues to fill your cup. Rot from within. LOL

These chickens are all coming home to roost!

"You Lilith seem to see the worst motives in every action"

I don't see too much good in supporting terrorism or anti-Semtism. Why you see the noble Archbishop's words as OK is a mystery.

The US will soon enough leave you all to your own devices if you don't change your tune, to deal with Islamofascism on your own. You have plenty of them there with or without visas. Plenty of them planning to harm the "infidels" of the UK.

It is absolutely amazing. Blame, blame, blame the US and the Jews for whatever ails the world. Never, ever look at yourselves and how you might have contributed to it all.

Well, I would like to ask this one question. Imagine a world where neither Jews nor Americans had EVER existed? Add up everything we have invented, developed, discovered and rescued during the last century—and eliminate it.

Go on, live in that world. You are welcome to it! Between the Nazis, the Commies and the Islamofascists you should do just fine, Romy. LOL

Lili

I am starting to become convinced that the British Establishment has gone totally bonkers! Can the BBC, al Reuters et al have done such a good job of corrupting the powers of reason? Had King Hussein not listened to the lies of Gamal Abdel Nasser and attacked Israel, the West Bank would still be part of Jordan and we would not be hearing about Palestinians as they were all called Jordaninas up until 1967.

You are histrionic Lilith. I don't recall echoing the sentiments of the Archbishop; but you apparently read what no one has written.

You might review an article by Mark Steyn in today's Telegraph or a myriad of other US articles on the lax behaviour of the US Embassy in Riyadh. I do not believe Europe has seen any such visas issued for flying lessons on jets, nor is airport security as pitifully poor as in US airports......I was always amazed at DF/W and Logan at the amateurish security.

Britain will have fewer problems than the USA, simply because Britain very few Muslims here are opposed to this country; and most are better off than in a MUslim country........it used to be The Yellow Peril, now you urge us to beware The Muslim Peril, and in doing so you sound reminiscent of those in Vienna a century ago who shrieked about a Jewish Peril.

I think you should stop being so hyperbolic and calm down....you obviously get over-anxious in the US and seriously paranoid.

"Well, I would like to ask this one question. Imagine a world where neither Jews nor Americans had EVER existed? Add up everything we have invented, developed, discovered and rescued during the last century—and eliminate it. "

Poor woman ! It's getting too much for her. Paranoia, I wonder if she smokes dope ?

Actually the Archbishop has swallowed the Arab line (& hook and sinker) he probably got his information from one of the Palestinian web sites

Send him an Email and ask him

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/3234791.stm

"in the self giving of its central figure Jesus. This speaks of a human life and society being transformed by self-giving. It says that the source and purpose of tolerance and respect are the virtues and values, visions and hopes of love – the love of the other, the enemy and the stranger. It argues that the only way to solve my own personal needs is for us to address the needs of the other."

Actually it shows redemption through death

We have to accept human authorship of the Bible, and the inevitable distortions of God that accompany all human efforts to interpret religious experience. We have, therefore, to challenge the violence of God traditions in the Bible."

Why ? How can you decide it is what you say rather than what was written ?

" The Ten Commandments prohibit killing, and the prophets railed against social and economic violence and advocated justice especially for the poor and the oppressed. All the prophets looked forward to the end of time, when there would be an end of violence, and reconciliation between nations and between God and human beings"

Maybe he should read Revelation !

"Those of us who are Christians have to face the terrible truth that we, along with others, are partly responsible for situations of tension and violence, economic injustice and social exclusion, because we have allowed certain paradigms in our faith history to be used in these ways"

Not as bad as the decadent Christianity which now respects apostasy

"and the cluster bombing of Dresden"

What cluster bombing ? Is he nuts. It was hit with incendiaries and HE....why would you use shrapnel on a city ?

"It was America, a Christian democratic country, that dropped the first atomic bomb. The Christian faith has at times increased the potential for human conflict rather than reduced it. "

What a stupid comment, it was an Anglo-American mission; and it was right. Did he mention the actions of the Pagans in Japan and USSR and the evil deeds they did ?

This is a very confused prelate......no wonder the Anglican Church is a home to the Anti-Christ.

"Britain will have fewer problems than the USA, simply because Britain very few Muslims here are opposed to this country; and most are better off than in a MUslim country........

RIGHT! wink, wink, nod, nod. suuuure thing, Romy.

"it used to be The Yellow Peril, now you urge us to beware The Muslim Peril, and in doing so you sound reminiscent of those in Vienna a century ago who shrieked about a Jewish Peril."

Hmmm—such logic! It's almost middle eastern. So, how many Jews have strapped on bombs and blown up innocents lately?

The Islamofascist threat is real, and is a greater threat to world peace than the Nazis ever where, Romy. Whether you choose to believe it or not, will not make it go away. Hope that you or anyone you love are not in the wrong place at the wrong time when some Islamofascist decides to blow himself up in the UK or Europe.

As to the lax behavior of the US, I fully concur. I have always said our intelligence failed and continues to fail. I wrote an article within one day of 9/11 on that. OTOH—Europe's intelligence was not much better. After all Atta and his gang hatched their plot on the Continent in good old Hamburg. And many Islamic terrorists are constantly arrested in Europe. Many more actually than in the US. That must mean you are either better than we are, you have better intelligence or—gasp, you have more Islamic terrorists there. Right!

You all should really read the Qu'ran, the hadiths and the prayers coming out of the mosques every Friday not to mention the school books of Muslims. Go on now, get busy—read!

I'm for Reformation in Islam not war. Just to be clear.

Lili

Tri—You are such a cute little chauvinist. ;-) (I would have written it to you in an e-mail. But, you gutless wonder don't seen to post one.)

The Archbishop of Wales is just another well meaning but ignorant idealist who does not realise the danger that Islam poses to the West.

Lilith:
Making concessions to the Arabs is a policy that is doomed to failure, for all it will do is raise further demands. Events of the past decade confirm this. In fact the Jihad will never end until Israel is extinguished. It is a Koranic imperative.

The best Israel can do is to annexe Yesha and start the process of separation from the Arabs. In fact do what the Archbishop thinks Israel has been doing till now. The results could be eminently satsfying.

"So, how many Jews have strapped on bombs and blown up innocents lately? "

Shall we place the emphasis on "lately" lilith ?

The Islamofascist threat is real, and is a greater threat to world peace than the Nazis ever where

Absolute hogwash. Total rubbish. Islamic terrorists could not kill as many persons as the Nazis in 100 years; and could not devastate a continent.......they are weak. Can't you get your head round the fact that terrorism is weak....designed to show you are weaker.

Nazism was strong, brutal, powerful and built a huge European Empire....stop trying to make out a bunch of weak car mobers from the Middle East equate to a regime like Adolf Hitler........you might think such weird thoughts in New Jersey or wherever - talk to people in Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Kiev, Belgrade before you utter such inane drivvle.

"After all Atta and his gang hatched their plot on the Continent in good old Hamburg. And many Islamic terrorists are constantly arrested in Europe. "

Yes, if only the FBI had arrested the ones taking flying lessons in the US. Why is the US so incompetent at tracking I-94s ?

Incidentally Lilith, just what crime had Mohammed Atta committed in Hamburg ?

Or is it sufficient in your eyes to be an Arab to be automatically guilty and arrested ?

Try thinking of due process rather than taking political prisoners. Normal places arrest people for committing crimes, Atta commited none in Europe.

Romulus, you really need to look around at the world a bit more. In the last 20 years more than 3 million non mulsims have been killed by muslims, 2 million alone in Sudan. The Islamic threat is still growing, we do not know where it will end up. It is not impossible that we may have civil unrest on the scale of say Nigeria here as the muslim communitity (or some elements of it) seek to impose shia'ia law here. Just think of the recent events where a British MP was made to recant his words for suggesting that British Muslims should follow British laws.

"Making concessions to the Arabs is a policy that is doomed to failure, for all it will do is raise further demands. Events of the past decade confirm this. In fact the Jihad will never end until Israel is extinguished. It is a Koranic imperative."

DP—I agree that making concessions to Arabs is not only doomed to failure, it is suicidal. "Give them a little finger. . . " as the old saying goes. As to jihad never ending until Israel is destroyed, I can't agree with that. Jihad against the whole world will never end until the Islamic nation rules over the world—as commanded in the Qu'ran or—there is a formal Reformation and Muslims refute those many, many passages or violent jihad against the Jews and the "non-believers."

-----

"Absolute hogwash. Total rubbish. Islamic terrorists could not kill as many persons as the Nazis in 100 years; and could not devastate a continent.......they are weak. Can't you get your head round the fact that terrorism is weak....designed to show you are weaker. . ."

Romy, Romy, Romy, your logic as always is faulty. There are 1.5 BILLION Muslims in the world. It has been estimated that about 10% of those are radicals. How many million Islamic extremists does that make? Get out your little calculator and figure this out. It's good training for the mind.

They killed less than 3,000 people in the US in one fell swoop and the world economy took a nose-dive. Each time there is a terror attack or even the threat of an attack, particularly in the West, the financial markets take a go down.

Can't you get your head around the fact that Osama bin Laden et al. is out to destroy the world economy and establish a 7th century paradisical Islamic caliphate world wide? He has said so many times. Perhaps it is because you have not read his terrorist manifesto. Read this book instead. It is finance, easier to comprehend than ObL or Hawkings:

"Terrorism's Cost in a Global Economy

By ALAN COWELL

SINCE Sept. 11, 2001, the war on terrorism has been broadly portrayed as a phenomenon whose battlefronts range from Bali to Baghdad and whose successes and failures are measured in the bloodshed of suicide bombings or airplane attacks.

But what if the war, from another perspective, has proceeded in less obvious ways, undermining the global economy to a previously unimagined, and perilous, extent?

That is the central question posed by "Modern Jihad" (Pluto Press), a study from Loretta Napoleoni, an economist and Italian journalist based in London. The book's central premise is that if you follow the money, as good investigators always should, you come to the conclusion that economic activity related to terrorism accounts for a staggering $1.5 trillion, or 5 percent of annual global output. . ."

Full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/09/business/yourmoney/09shel.html

----

"..Nazism was strong, brutal, powerful and built a huge European Empire....stop trying to make out a bunch of weak car mobers from the Middle East equate to a regime like Adolf Hitler........you might think such weird thoughts in New Jersey or wherever - talk to people in Warsaw, Rotterdam, London, Coventry, Kiev, Belgrade before you utter such inane drivvle. . ."

Considering that the WHOLE world has mobilized against Islamic terrorism, guess that makes them ALL as weird as those people in New Jersey. You really should read more, Romy. It might help your grasp on reality. Try this for some statistics on world involvement against international Islamic terror and general "peace keeping." Gives you a good idea of just who is paying for what:

". . .As of April 2002, more than sixty countries were providing support to the war on terrorism, and thirteen of these were supporting Operation ENDURING FREEDOM with troops on the ground in Afghanistan. . . "

http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/allied_contrib2002/02-Chptr2/02-Chptr_2tx.html

-----

"Incidentally Lilith, just what crime had Mohammed Atta committed in Hamburg ?"

Atta and his gang were being watched by the Germans and the CIA for years. They knew EXACTLY who they were. Only hours after the attacks everyone of the hijakers' pictures was on the net. There was a CIA agent who agitated for their arrest, and was threatened with deportation from Germany as a result. The Germans have admitted many times that they failed, just as the rest of the world failed, in intelligence against these people. I have that article somewhere re: the CIA agent. In the mean time. . .

Check this out: "Germans Were Tracking Sept. 11 Conspirators as Early as 1998, Documents Disclose

HAMBURG, Germany, Jan. 17 — Three years before the Sept. 11 attacks, Germany's domestic intelligence service was tracking prominent members of the Hamburg terrorist cell that planned and executed the aircraft hijackings, according to newly obtained documents. . . "

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/18/international/europe/18HAMB.html?pagewanted=print&position=bottom

Supporting terrorism in any manner is a crime now—after we have learned our lesson that radical Islam is indeed a threat to world peace and will take us all down into one, dark Islamic night if we let it. Now, you may not feel it is a crime and you can continue to believe that radical Islam is not a threat to world peace, Romy, that these Islamofascist are just "weak car mobers from the Middle East"— but, the world seems to see it differently given that they are spending treasure and expending manpower to get a handle on Islamic terrorism. ;-)

BTW—radical Islam is a world-wide movement. Many of their terrorists are not from the ME. Many were born in the West or in Asia or. . .

Lili

I think Denis MacShane was barmy for saying what he did; just as his latest outburst against Romano Prodi is stupid....he did not attack Kinnock who is guilty of exactly the same offence as Prodi's Deputy.

The German CI services are not unitary Lilith, but regional. The Hamburg BfV region did not keep track of Atta and his friends, and there is NO unitary CI service in Germany because the last one they had was too effective.....so rather than have a RSHA again with a Gestapo, the German CI was federated. That is why nothing happened.

Tracking someone is not the same as having a crime to charge them with. If the FBI pursued that line they would not have extradition attempts ridiculed for submitting files based upon newspaper cuttings as occurred in London.

There is a system known as Due Process......just how did John Walker Lindh get such a light sentence ?

"Supporting terrorism in any manner is a crime now"

Please tell me under what Statute ?

Atta and his gang were being watched by the Germans and the CIA for years. They knew EXACTLY who they were."

So just how could they get visas for the US to train to fly jets ? How did they get ID and bank accounts ? Was the CIA really so incompetent it could not hand this off to the FBI, or should FBI and CIA be combined as happens with the KGB ?

"So just how could they get visas for the US to train to fly jets ? How did they get ID and bank accounts ? Was the CIA really so incompetent it could not hand this off to the FBI, or should FBI and CIA be combined as happens with the KGB ?"

I have stated over and over that the whole world's intelligence system failed. Terrorists get into Europe all the time. How do they get visas? The EU gives welfare to terrorists who claim asylum. How do they get that? The system is imperfect. But, you, Romy just want to blame the US for everything that the EU had a hand in.

You know, it's really very funny. When the US lets "everyone" in, we are letting in terrorists and being incompetent. When we restrict immigration and visits to the US (like other nations) then we are being racist.

Just the same as interfering in world affairs. People SCREAM that the "only one who can do anything about the ME or Africa or S. America or where ever, is the US." But, if we do anything we are "imperialists."

Hey, fix the world yourselves! The EU is very good at criticizing and never doing anything but that, just like the Arabs. Use your manpower and your treasure to fix the world.

Peace in the ME is just as much in the interest of the EU as anyone. Go fix it instead of supporting Palestinian terrorists. Islamic terrorism threatens not only the US, but the EU and the rest of the world. Go take care of your responsibilities and fix it!

Did you read any of the links, Romy? Guess not. LOL

Lili

"Please tell me under what Statute ?"

"Anti-Terrorism Acts" are world wide, particularly since 9/11. The US has had one since the Oklahoma bombings.

Lili

No terrorist took any flying lessons in any EU state. Only in the US could a foreigner take flying lessons without being checked.

Which Statute Lilith ? Title ? You speak of acts passed since 9/11, just how could they have any bearing on events prior to 9/11 ?

So in the US the State can now arrest and imprison anyone without trial ? Interesting....which sections of the Bill of Rights have been suspended ? Habeas Corpus ?

Why you launch into one of your off-the wall outbursts I don't know. Must be a sign of desperation, and a tenuous grasp on logic. The fact remains that a bunch of fanatics in Afghanistan managed to send men to the Us to train as pilots - "we don't want to land" - and walk onto planes and hi-jack them.......presumably airport security gets in the way of speedy check-in ?

Had the airport security been functional rather than symbolic none of this would have happened. Does El-Al think US airport security is worthy of being called "security" ?

If Spinoza were to to return to earth today and read Melanie's blog, what would be the content of his posting to this item? Discuss, please.

One suggestion - perhaps Spinoza would approve - is to apply the UK's new 'Use of mobile phones while driving' law to both Israel and the territories under dispute. The reason: this is a law with legs.

It's only a short leap from banning handsets while driving to banning *other* items - this law could be usefully extended to include anti-Semitic propaganda, pro-Palestine newspapers, bomb detonators etc. After all, driving with a stuffed crust pizza in your hand is just as dangerous as holding a handset.

This simple law could have major repercussions for peace in the Middle East - and be a useful way to increase government funds too, through on-the-spot fines and confiscations. I'm pretty sure such a law is in accordance with both Sharia and Jewish principles - it could even bring these cultures together on common ground. Does anyone have thoughts on this?

Mobile phones in cars, eh? You know, a funny thing happened to me the other day that I think is almost relevant to this discussion. I was driving along quite happily whilst downing a swift lunch (a cold slice of stuffed crust pizza as I recall) when I was pulled over by a very keen policeman.

I was given a most sensible lecture on the dangers of being distracted from roadside events by the eating of said pizza slice. Chastened, I prepared for the worst ... a fine perhaps, or a night in the cells with some hookers just like in that Beverley Hills Cop movie. Sadly though, for the policeman, he was powerless to give me anything more than a stern word and a slapped wrist.

So, in conclusion I would suggest that if pulled over by the police whilst on the phone, all you need do is start eating it. You may wish to "pre-stuff" the phone with your favourite filling if you have little taste for transistors.

I sincerely hope the new law does indeed have legs, but whether they'll be long enough to stretch I really can't see. To me, on-the spot fines are hardly deterrent enough to stop people from driving dangerously, let alone from driving with pizza and other such egregious activities.

Still, at least it will draw people's attention, as this is a subject that matters - as David Aaronovitch said in his column in June, by far the largest poster in Ramallah is for mobile phones. It's a fact that people want mobiles, people use mobiles and thus raising awareness may be done through penalising the use of mobiles.

David Aaronovitch was talking about this just the other day. He suggested that if the Palestinians and the Israelis were all issued with handsfree sets they could settle their differences on the way to work. Sounded like the usual load of old Grauniad bollocks to me.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with David Aaronovitch over a particularly delicious

'Goodfellas' stuffed crust pizza the other day. As is often the case when we have dinner,

David would insist on slicing the pizza in his own unique style. First he would draw the

pizza cutter over the freshly cooked base with his lovely hands in a line that approximately

bisected it along the diameter, then would cut another line roughly perpendicular to the

first on each side. While this would usually result in four roughly equal segments he had

slipped during the final incision, thus sending the cutter on a skewed routed across the

deliciously aromatic cheese-topped surface. I recoiled in horror as I gazed at the terrible

mess he had created. There were approximately seven slices now, ranging in size from the

size of a postage stamp to that of a Hewlett Packard Deskjet 840C 'Getting Started' manual.

David pulled me to him and cupped my weeping face to his powerfully built chest. "It's

okay," he said, "Look at what I've made."

As I wiped the tears from my eyes I saw now that the pizza slices almost exactly resembled

the major land masses of the Earth. The garlic sauce leaking from the crust formed a

mesmeric swirling sea on the table.

"It's beautiful," I said. David's eyes met mine and we laughed like children. "Perhaps -

like this pizza - the world may some day be a place of harmony and love."

We spent the rest of the evening talking over a bottle of rather fruity Australian red, and

discussed the many things including but not limited to the ways that one could achieve a

lasting peace for our troubled world.

"Take Afghanistan," whispered David softly into my blushing ear, "A beautiful place yet for

so long tormented by the demented intervention of others. It reminds me of Mountbatten in

neighbouring Kashmir. Such a terrible waste of so many innocent lives."

It was a sombre thought. Every day people die for no reason. Again I wept. David held me

close and we ate a pack of Fred Bassett Liquorice Allsorts to cheer ourselves up, then

wrestled each other on the floor for the last one.

Ignorance can be bliss.

Hmmm... is it possible the entire map of the Middle East could be redrawn with a pizza cutter? Vivid thought! And flexible too. I bet even Paul Dacre would approve.

I sense a movement away from the original topic. I am not sure exactly what pizza has to do with Zionism or the state of Israel and the wider problems of the Middle East.

In an attempt to drag this discussion back on topic could I just draw your attention to this quote.

"There are no obstacles, merely challenges."
Lord Mountbatten

Words to ponder, I'm sure you'll agree.

I believe Stuffed crust Pizza has as much to do with Zionism as Fred Bassett has to do with Paddy Ashdown's diaries.

A worthy attempt to put us back on track, but we must not forget that mention of obstacles can serve only to demotivate, not solely to enthuse. Fred Bassett's cartoon today, for instance, shows him pondering a newly placed fence - indeed, he notes, it will keep Poppy out, but it will also keep him in. Nowhere do we see an attempted solution - the wall has removed all hope of escape from our hero.

Truly every coin has another side.

Indeed, the Fred Bassett cartoon could be said to be a metaphor for the whole issue of terrorist immigration fear. Worried about an influx of Islamic extremists, the Americans are increasingly isolating themselves from the rest of the world - before long they'll have nothing to do but sit at home munching stuffed crust pizza and contemplating their navels.

Apologies if my post confused the thread of conversation due to a slight innacuracy. I meant 'Bertie Bassett Licquorice Allsorts', as clearly Fred Bassett is a cartoon dog or something.

Talking of coins - aren't the on-the-spot fines for mobile phone use while driving somehow resonant of the restrictions imposed on Palestinians? The new laws restrict the 'freedom to talk', yet increase government coffers, this providing government with an incentive to restrict freedoms further - subtly different to Lord Mountbatten's 'Freedom at Midnight' in India. It takes all sorts, of course.

Pizza has EVERYTHING to do with it. If they did not exist there would be no pizza palours and henceforth less bombings.

A good point indeed Sebastian. Does the new law only cover 'talking' on mobile phones? What if you were just rubbing the smooth sides of your Nokia while driving?

Your hair looks amazing today, by the way.

I wonder how far this new law will stretch - as liberals, we're often concerned with things being the "thin end of the wedge", expecting still worse. Well, if we're to be fined for mobile phone use, and possibly for pizza eating, what price poor grammar - it should be "*fewer* bombings", as Mountbatten would have counselled you himself, were he able.

We cannot afford to go down the line whereby one man's meat becomes another man's poison - the person caught with the pizza (especially if stuffed crust) should be forced to eat it. Twice if it's a phone. And thus if caught with a something more injurious...I think Sebastian's onto something here.

at this point i hasten to point out that police have to use radios to communicate...to do that they need to use their hands....can we possibly give them spot fines? if not for that then can we jsut give them on the spto fines anyway? for no reason? seems fair...after all, its what they do to us

John's repetition of pizza similes (wedge, thin end) is worthy of David Aaronovitch - while Rodti's subtle insinuation is that follicular surveillance in today's London is omnipresent. Thanks, both, for enlightening me with such food for thought.

Is there any precedent for our mobile phone laws to be *imposed* on another region, if the purpose is to stop senseless killing? Surely this is a higher ideal.

I could have done with slapping a fine on a policeman the other day. I desperately needed to know where magnetic north was, but the two policemen I asked didn't have a compass between them. I was incensed. SURELY the police should carry them? What if they get lost?

I don't even LIKE pizza and neither did he as far as I recall.

The suggestion that mere members of the public should be free to levy fines to those they perceive as miscreants is the first step towards the total Daily Mailification of this country. I have no wish to see Paul Dacre revered as some kind of God. We have David Aaronovitch for that.

Jay, of course, draws a fresh parallel between our motoring laws and the Middle East - aggressive behaviour is often responded to with retaliation rather than negotiation. (When you can't use your phone, of course, negotiation takes place much less often to start with.) Perhaps by 'fining' UK policemen as Jay suggests, we could draw more attention to the Middle Eastern problem among British citizens?

I'm sure the US military in occupied Iraq must in some way crack down on mobile telephone use. It's scientifically proven that terrorism can travel along telephone lines (or indeed wireless communications) like a computer virus, or AIDS.

If you answer a telephone that has been infected by terrorism you will be sucked into the earpiece (like in the Matrix) directly into Osama bin Laden's malevolent stomach. There you will be slowly digested and excreted as a suicide bomber, or a hijacked aircraft.

Interestingly, searching for precedent has unearthed a Googlewhack - a search for Impose Mountbatten Bassett finds but one answer.

Perhaps there is no link betwixt them - or it could be that my omission of "law" or "legal" has made it appear so. Whichever, I find myself somewhat deflated.

Musing upon that fact, however, I do note of myself that I am not in a mood to make any kind of phone call - a similar effect, surely, would be created by an on the spot fine - a penalty acting as a deflationary, counter-behavioural method? Or does increasing misery not work as a method of control?

Hmm, misery as a form of control would certainly explain the continuing high turnouts at Elland Road this season.

Actually, Rodti, I believe mobile phones have been banned by the US military for precisely the reasons you specify (minus the parts involving digestive tracts.) Apparently some soldiers flouted the law (all law, not just British motoring's) by downloading the poetry at this link: http://straightrazor.org. I wonder if 'straightrazor' is related to Lord Mountbatten?

Speaking of football, my namesake used to play in goal for Algeria.

"All I know most surely about morality and obligations, I owe to football"

Sadly his views on mobile phones were less well documented.

Is it still there at Heathrow ? I think it is there that Vodafone has a giant map of its operations with Palestine as one of them

Ah, Camus - immortalised on a Philosophy Football T-Shirt. As is Proudhon -
"To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied upon, directed, legislated at, regulated, docketed, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, weighed, censored, ordered about..."
...and to be fined for Mobile phone usage. Not quite in the same league, is it.

Though perhaps only through relegation.

Which brings us back to Leeds...

how about a mobile phone disguised as a half peeled banana - when holding it to your mouth it would look innocuous and surely fool the boys in blue.
or is eating fruit en-vehicle also illegal in blair's new hands-free britain?

This now comes down to semantics. For instance, what _is_ drink driving? One summer I drove down the motorway drinking a can of Stella. It was the only can in my possession, and I had drunk nothing before it that day. Does the act of driving while drinking constitute a crime? And what if you are drinking alcohol while driving, but are still well below the legal limit? Admittedly I was doing 95mph, but we'll forget that for the moment.

Maybe some enterprising people could come up with a 'hands free' drinking kit for cars. I mean, most cars have got cup holders, all you need is an extra-long straw and you're away. So long as you aren't over the limit then you should be OK. I wouldn't advise driving at 95 though.

As I was driving through Richmond the other day, merrily humming along to 'If Yer Ears Don't Bleed It Ain't Rock'n'Roll' by Hell's Belles while using both hands to write a particularly complex and angry note on my Blackberry to a chap from Nigeria that had offered me £1m in exchange for a measly £35k in 'taxation fees' and then disappeared without trace and simultaenously eating a Stuffed Crust Mighty Meaty (it was early, I was probably still a little tipsy from the night before), I ploughed into the back of Mercedes estate driven by Lord Mountbatten's great niece Dolly. My question is this: does a Blackberry count in the eyes of the law as a mobile phone?

I'm pretty sure hedgerow fruit isn't covered by the new law. However eating a stuffed crust pizza may count as driving without due care and attention.

Realistically if they're going to ban using handheld mobile phones when driving, not because it halves the amount of hands you can drive with but because the act of conversation distracts you from driving, then why not ban all conversations in cars so everyone can quietly get one with something else while driving eg eating stuffed crust pizza's in complete safety.

Anyone see the opening scene of an episode of that Judge John Deed series with Martin Shaw where a driver of a Range Rover holding and talking on a mobile phone over takes a parked car and just about avoids a head-on collision with on coming traffic only to wipe out two or three pedestrians on a path against a stone wall ? - the driver then decamps and runs for it. Very graphic!

If ever there was a reason for the law, this is it - surely. For once, Blair's cronies are on the tip.

To many muppets on the road not paying attention to driving. I think that they should also ban conversing with passengers as well. This is just as distracting as talking on the phone!
Kitty, you beat me to it!

Policing it will be a major challenge though - I see very few, if any, police cars on the M4 on my way to work, but there are plenty of business suits using their cars as an office, on the phone or having a discussion with others while travelling in the middle lane turning a 3 lane motorway into a dual carriage way, no wonder roads are congested.

Nothing pisses me of more than having to slow down to 85mph or so from 110+ mph in the outside lane 'cos there's a queue of traffic getting passed these middle lane drivers that are oblivious to how to use an indicator, mirrors and a steering wheel!

If only there was an easy way to get the message across "PAY ATTENTION TO DRIVING YOU MUPPETS!"

I had David Aaronovitch, Fred Bassett, Lord Mountbatten and Paul Dacre in my car the other day, we were driving to a stuffed crust pizza eating competition. The point is that we enjoyed an interesting conversation engaging a number of topical issues and not once did I crash at all.

I think the problem is driving with one hand whilst holding a conversation. In order to experiment I suggest all readers offer a colleague a lift home from work one day next week. During the journey you must drive only with one hand whilst holding an intense conversation with your passenger. Write in and tell us if you had an accident and we'll collate some statistics on the experiment.

But who exactly would pay the fine if the muppets were caught using mobile phones while driving?

The estate of Jim Henson?

...if the speed limit was raised and the these business suits drove faster paying more attention they could do their office stuff at the office!!

Grrr,

middle lane hoggers.

Grrrrr.

On the spot fine *them*. Yes. And give them spatial ability lessons to show them how they're holding traffic up - and not just traffic that's breaking the limit, either (this last for use against any self-righteous "but if they slow people down a bit..." apologists).

Grrrrr

But why do they need to have a conversation and drive fast as well? They should be mutually exclusive - you either need to drive to someone with to have a conversation as they don't have a phone or you can call them and stay at home. The only time when you may need to do both is if you're late getting to Pizza Hut and you're calling your mate to reserve the last delicious slice of stuffed crust pizza.

I don't see how on the spot fines are directly related to the problem of prejudice and ignorance amongst clerics. It is a great concern to me that the Archbishop of Wales seems eager to demonise a whole group of people from such an ill-educated yet undeniably powerful (in terms of the influence he holds) standpoint.

I suppose that in some ways, prayer is like a mobile phone to a cleric - a vital line of communication when, metaphorically, they are driving along a spiritual freeway. How ironic that the freeway has become so restrictive, so un-free. But would it be right to say to a cleric "you can not use your mobile phone [prayer] whilst driving, because you might crash the car [spiritually]?" And then issue an on the spot fine?

Such illogical and distasteful action, worthy of Paul Dacre himself, is of course not even worthy of consideration. Yet, we all consider it on a daily basis, whether we know it or not - from Joe Public, to Philippa Forester, to Raymond Allen Gray Jr. and Lord Mountbatten himself.

Only when we humble ourselves and take responsibility, can we affor to "issue fines" in this stuffed crust pizza that we call life. As David Aaronovitch once said: "Fred Bassett - " I can't remember the rest of the quote.

personally I don't have a problem with the fines. Having myself attempted to negotiate a roundabout at the same time as chatting on the phone and smoking a joint, I can without a doubt say that it has impared my ability, plus if extra government revenue can be generated via this method I'm all in favour of it. I'm in favour of stuffed crust pizza too.

Thank you Melanie for making all this possible.

I think you're all taking the pizza

I deny everything.

Hallo Melanie - it's impossible to keep trolls out of any discussion groups...

At last - a sensible mobile phone/pizza/driving discussion. Amost makes life worth living.

I don't think it's trollish Nannette. Try to think outside the box.

The David Aaronovitch analogy to stuffed crust pizzas is almost Lord Mountbatten(esque) in character and dignity. I would imagine Paul Dacre would disapprove in his typical 'Fred Basset' type rants, but there something to this mobile phone ban usage.

Example, and bear with me, the mobile phone ban usage -- whilst driving -- has no real utility. Just like the insidious conflict between the different religions, it's based upon a vital lie: is it a method to prevent accidents or a way to generate tax revenues? Now swap accident prevention for "religious bigotry" and tax revenues for "opium for the people" and you'll see the conflict.

It's a fundamental quandary, it can be solved if we use the tautological "stuffed crust pizza" argument. A stuffed crust pizza is the ultimate binge eating fast food culture excess. It's an apendage but wholly part of the pizza. Now, I don't know if Melanie or yourself have dabbled in this stuff -- being sensible eaters (which I imagine you are) I'm sure you haven't -- whilst you bite the cheese oozes out of the crust, it's the moral equivilance of religious corpulence. It is temptation itself. If one uses elegant pizza cutters to demarcate the slices and reduce the temptation, then understanding and true enjoyment of that bit in the middle takes over. Marvelous way of thinking. Why grab the whole thing and bite without a care for other people's feelings. I, for one, welcome this development in the monotheistic sciences.

Alabaster Entenswop aka Albert Einstein :-)

Thanks for the explanation, but how did you guess I'm a healthy eater... I don't touch pizza after seeing how it turns to a glue like substance in the stomach and is almost impossible to digest! Although I think a genuine Italian pizza may be different to the el cheapo ones we have here in the UK.

If I didn't have such an aversion to pizza I could easily find myself agreeing with you. :-)

I have my own views on religion, although I do believe there's only one God, but many ways to get there... all religions have their good and bad sides - although what's right for me isn't necessarily right for you.

If anyone wants to find their spiritual path, they need to do it in their own way, methodically, slowly and take in not only the finer details, but the broader picture at the same time.

I do believe that there's more to religious spirituality than is written in the books available to us now. A good chunk of the Old Testament disappeared as did the New Testament, the parts of the religions that taught about the metaphysical aspects of spirituality, but are all documented in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Each and every one of us can learn from all major world religions, but narrow mindedness and bigotry shouldn't play any role whatsoever in the True teachings.

"Each and every one of us can learn from all major world religions, but narrow mindedness and bigotry shouldn't play any role whatsoever in the True teachings."

To some extent that is true. However, Islam is unique among world religions in that it has codified intolerance against the "other" as well as misogyny, in not only its religious texts of the Qu'ran, but also in its laws via sharia and the hadith (sayings attributed to Mohammed). While there is plenty of violence in the Old Testament, the New Testament is one of "peace and love" and "love thy neighbor" and "turn the other cheek." etc.

While Christianity has not always adhered to these principles, it is not written in the Bible to murder "un-believers." Islam, as conceived by Mohammed, is not only a religion but also a social and political system made to solidify the Islamic empire via the Ummah. "All for one, and one for all." All who reject must be killed. Clever guy, that Mohammed. ;-)

Nanette, I never eat pizza either, especially in the US—where these are DISGUSTING calorie saucers the size of a small SUV. Try eating one in France or Italy. They are superb not to mention a civilized size.

Lili

As far as Islam goes Lilith, it's true that there are some vile parts to the Koran and than they want the Khilafa established to fulfill the Koranic prophecy.

BUT, the Koran could be modified, just as the Talmud was modified in about 800AD.

All it needs is for the moderate Muslims, to find a much stronger voice and oppose the radicals who seem to dominate the press at the moment.

Right now however, the anti-semitism which some of us saw coming well before the current Intifada is going to be hard to stop. We in Europe are due for another Holocaust, which happens to us every 100 or so years:

http://www.daily-times.com/artman/publish/article_6172.shtml

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110004398

BTW - I had a delicious pizza (a real one) at an Italian place in Vichy where they have a wood burning pizza oven... :-)

"BUT, the Koran could be modified, just as the Talmud was modified in about 800AD.

All it needs is for the moderate Muslims, to find a much stronger voice and oppose the radicals who seem to dominate the press at the moment."

Would that it were so Nanette. But, given that the Qu'ran is considered the "immutable word of Allah" it will be very,very difficult. Clever fellow that Mohammed. He set it up so that nothing could be changed in his misanthropic, misogynistic Islamic empire for "eternity."

Clearly such a Reformation must come from Muslims. I don't believe it will happen in our life-times. However, if one looks on the "positive" side of the darkness of Islamic jihad—then, the more murders of innocents there are in the name of Islam, the more the world will rise up against Islamic terrorism. Perhaps that way Muslims will move toward a reformation more quickly.

I sincerely hope so.

“You know, people here act polite to Jews because that is the politically correct thing to do. But I don’t think very many people like them.”

I agree with this statement from the article. Each and every time I go to Europe I see more and more anti-Semitism and it not just among Muslims. The UN is made up of many states that are blatantly anti-Semitic.

However, I would not worry too much. The US would NEVER in a MILLION years let another Holocaust happen to the Jews. I don't believe the Jews would go quietly either this time. Unfortunately, other people, such as the Africans are not getting as much respect.

It always astounds me that the Euros ignore everything around them, yet pretend to care.

Love those French pizzas!

Lili

"The US would NEVER in a MILLION years let another Holocaust happen to the Jews"

A million years is longer than recorded history; do you really imagine the strength of the Us will last another century let along a 1000 years ? It has had 60 years of strength and only 10 of unlimited possibilities.......and I doubt any American will fight a nuclear war for any ethnic group whether Jews Tutsis or Europeans.......

Don't be too reay to sign the US up to your own agenda, disappointmnts can be bitter....

It should be obvious to all affected by the new legislation that it's simply another way of ripping off the driver.

As a countryside resident, I find commuting takes at least two hours of my time every day. And now the government proposes yet ANOTHER covert tax on weary motorists?

Thanks to New Labour, honest drivers in this country have no option but to stare blindly ahead when stuck in traffic. I was already denied the enjoyment of reading the comic musings of Fred Bassett and eating stuffed crust pizza thanks to Tony Liar's BARMY laws, but now I can't even 'phone my wife to let her know I'll be late for Glyndbourne.

I agree 100% with Paul Dacre when he says that it's David Aaronovitch and the loony left who are behind this new ploy.

Let's see John "Two Jags" Prescott weasel his way out of this one!

re: Messianic Zionism

First it should be stated that l'chatchila, before the creation of the State of Israel, ALL religious leaders were against the idea. This is because it is against Jewish law and Jewish principles (see, for example, b. kesuvos 111a). Even though there *are* extra commandments to be done when living in Eretz Yisroel, it is not essential to go there and isn't mentioned at all by Maimonides in his magnum opus on Jewish law (Sefer HaMitzvos) or in the Shulchan Oruch of Yosef Caro (main legal reference).

After the creation, most religious groups remained fairly ambivalent, while still stresssing that it shouldn't have been created. One group didn't. Chabad Lubavitch.

The Lubavitcher Rebbe, when not trying to persuade his followers that he was the real Messiah, stressed that NONE of the occupied territories/conquered lands/whatever should EVER be given back. He based this on a legal principle that for property transfer with a non-Jew, unless you can COMPLETELY trust the non-Jew then you must not give anything away. He said that since the Arabs are inherently untrustworthy then they must receive NO land. Chabad Lubavitch is a large movement (by no means mainstream yet) with hundreds of thousands of followers. See their book "Peace Upon the Land" for more details.

Admittedly, Rabbi Schneerson, their leader, was partly using it for Messianic purposes to further his claim as the messiah (www.beismoshiach.com). "Religious" Zionists (an oxymoron) also have messianic ideas about the State.

The "popular" view is that it is Jewish land and only Jews should be there. Expressed also in "pop" music like that of 'Dr Laz', a former publc school teacher in the States: "It's our land! It's our land! Belongs to every Jew since Abraham"

Read the religious Jewish papers like Hamodia and Jewish Tribune (the Jewish Chronicle, which advertises non-kosher restaurants does NOT count!) and you will see that even mainstream orthodox Jewry now 'accepts' that once the State exists it should be just a Jewish state. Hamodia recently (about a year ago) ran a cartoon strip in its children's supplement about a bunch of Arab terrorists in cahoots with (guess who) some German government officials (called Gunther or Ernst, if I recall) trying to destroy a bus full of Israelis.

This racism does exist. It is only the naive person who doesn't see it.

I've never ever before stumbled across a site with such distorted and self-serving justifications for the continuing oppression of the Palestinian Arabs by the all-powerful Israeli state.

Again we see that old canard that 95% of the occupied territories were on offer but the Arabs rejected this 'generous' offer. If they has accepted this offer, their territories would have consisted of dozens of small areas criss-crossed by roads,the other critical 5%, on which only Israelis would be permitted to travel; an arrangement not unlike the old Chinese torture of 'death by a thousand cuts', but an arrangement that would have invited any Arab state in Palestine to die by a thousand settlements.

Please don't insult the intelligence of your visitors by calling me and others who have a sense of justice, anti-semites.That is also an old canard that it rapidly losing its effectiveness. Indeed, I've even heard it applied to other Jews who deplore what Sharon and his storm-troopers are doing!

The peoples of America, Australia and Europe should not have to become terrorist targets because their governments continually fail to confront a fanatically-religious state that claims God gives it the right to oppress others and steal their land.