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December 03, 2003
The alliance decoupled
Statement of the obvious by Irwin Stelzer in the Times following Tony Bair's support for the Franco-German proposal to establish an EU military planning unit independent of NATO. As Stelzer says, this clearly breaks Blair's promise to do nothing to undermine NATO, since with one jump he has now aligned himself with the long-standing French objective of doing precisely that. As Stelzer points out, the consequences will be as dramatic as they are inevitable. The Americans will now inevitably wonder why on earth they are supplying troops and materiel to NATO when they are no longer wanted, and when they are desperately needed in the Middle East or wherever else the US happens to be engaged. So NATO, which has kept the peace and helped protect us all these years, may now be judged past its sell-by date and British security will be left to the tender mercies of the chocolate soldiers of Brussels. Posted by melanie at December 3, 2003
Comments
Stelzer is OTT. The US cannot afford to lose Great Britain, it is as de Gaulle once said "America's Trojan Horse"
The US is too small nowadays to go it alone, especially with China and India on the move. Stop being so melodramatic Melanie. Blair is duplicitous, but even the CIA could have managed to tell Bush that; and the NSA probably bugs his phones through Menwith Hill......it is no surprise. Probably the only way the US can see to bring Germany and France back onto a defence spending path. You must read more Le Carre to see the play within the play Posted by: Trianon at December 3, 2003 06:41 PMYou see so little Trianon. Take India for example. US-Indian ties are growing apace. The level of immigration from the Subcontinent to the high-tech meccas of the US is quite large. Once here the Indians do extremely well; many have become millionaires. In turn the Amero-Indian tech barons invest in India's own burgeoning tech center, further increasing economic and ultimately political ties. An Indian-American came within a hair's breath of being elected to the governorship of Louisiana. This is pretty phenomenal progress condisering the newness of Subcontinent immigration in the US. What's more, Indian-Americans helped defeat a pro-Islamic candidate in Georgia. (Most educated-class Indians are by and large English speaking, so the language barrier is not a problem. A US-Indian alliance is an obvious fit. We are both huge targets for Islamofascism, and for Chinese agression as well (although India is more in the line of fire than the US). Not there yet, but it is coming. A US-Indian alliance is 1.3 billion strong. It is coming. Europe forgets that the US has a West Coast as well as an East Coast. The West Coast historically looks to Asia, not Europe, for its economic and social ties. And it is the Western states that are growing in population, political influence and economic clout, while the Euro-centric Eastern states are losing same, and have been for a long time. Europe needs the US far more than the US needs Europe, even Britain. It's Britain's funeral for throwing their lot in with the losers on the Continent. No one in the US cares or worries about a "resurgent Russia." Russia is suffering from the same problems as Western Europe -- low indegenous birthrates and a growing belligerence of their sizeable Islamic minorities. Posted by: Susan at December 3, 2003 07:29 PMYou are off track Susan. The US has few friends. Link up with India which buys its weapons incl the new a/carrier from Russia. You forget that Europe too has a Pacific Coast with Russia, and raw materials beyong US dreams. It is called the Mackinder Plan...read up on it. The US will not stand by - it needs Britain too much. I know you think it is Israel and the US against the world, but the US has never taken on the world, and cannot. Stop being so hyperbolic. Good job the people in Washington are not quite as unbalanced and subject to mood swings as you are. They are educated and rational. Posted by: Trianon at December 3, 2003 07:36 PMI repeat: it is Britain's funeral for throwing its lot in with Europe, not ours. True, I would much rather have Britain, Canada, and Oz/NZ on our side; the Anglosphere belongs together to my mind. But Continental Europe is another story. NATO as it stands is simply an expensive welfare program for a deeply ungrateful, culturally suicidal Western Europe. You make me laugh by stating that India is closer to Russia than the US. Where are the Indian immigrants to Russia? I repeat: they are flooding the US in the hundreds of thousands and getting quite rich doing so. They are chock-a-block in Silicon Valley, high-tech capital of the world. US will have 500 million people by 2040. We are not "small and alone." We are the third-largest nation in the world, population-wise, and will remains so for the foreseeable future. We don't need Western Europe. It's a "nice to have" but not a necessity. At this point, the cultural ties are all that keep us together, and Western Europe seems intent on sundering them at every opportunity with its childish behavior. You team up with Russia -- you inherit all the problems that plague that nation on its Southern border: Chechnya and all the tens of millions of increasing belligerants in the Islamistans. Not a pretty picture to my mind. Why Europe would want to desert the Atlantic alliance, god only knows. But what the hell, as I said before, it is your funeral, not ours. Actually Susan I am not really bothered. You might remember that immigrants have nothing to do with politics, unless you are Irish. India does not have an affinity with the US which is linked to Pakistan. Life is not so simple as you make it out. Who cares anyway ? This is like a little girl's game of who is friends with whom. Realpolitik is something else. Palmerston said Britain has no permanent alliances, just permanent interests. Posted by: Trianon at December 3, 2003 07:53 PMYes, you are correct, Trianon, US has ties with Pakistan. But that is a relic of the Cold War. US's future lies with India and the other client states in Asia. As I said, it is not there yet, but it's coming. Your ideas about immigrants not having any influence are absurd. What do you think is at the heart of the US-UK "special relationship" after all? Despite the US's "come one, come all" approach to immigration, Anglo-Saxon Protestants are still a large segment of our population and still rule the roost in politics and industry, as they've done here for 300 years. Why do you think that our current President is called Bush and not Hidalgo? Britain (or any other Euro-nation) can come along for the ride, or throw in its lot with the sinking ship that is Western Europe. Up to you to decide. But a large segment of the US population has lost patience with Western Europe and with NATO, that is not to be denied. Posted by: Susan at December 3, 2003 08:10 PM". . .Good job the people in Washington are not quite as unbalanced and subject to mood swings as you are. They are educated and rational." Not in THIS administration, Trianon! LOL Some may be educated, unlike Bush. However, "rational" is precisely what they are not! The Bushies have yet to learn how to play nicely with others. The Euros have yet to stop playing with themselves. That, as you may well know, is a most unsatisfying pursuit. ;-) I LOVE the idea that Europe will finally be forced to pay for its own defense. Now, perhaps our people will be able to afford health insurance. Of course, with all the Islamofascist trying to help us to Paradise ASAP—we might not need it. " You might remember that immigrants have nothing to do with politics, unless you are Irish." ROTFLMAO!!! Immigrants have EVERYTHING to do with politics. The REASON Europe is in such dire straits is because they don't assimilate immigrants. Thus, these are very, very hostile to their "adopted" nations such as the UK, France, Germany, Belgium, The Netherlands, Italy et al. Europe NEEDS immigrants even more than Japan or the US needs them. However, they don't want immigrants because deep down, they are still very racist. The US can thank its immigrants for its greatness because we ASSIMILATE immigrants. "India does not have an affinity with the US which is linked to Pakistan. Life is not so simple as you make it out. Who cares anyway ?" Huh? As Susan said, India has lots of imigrants in the US. They do very, very well! There are plenty from Pakistan too. Indeed, most of our Ph.D. departments have immigrants from Asia and S. Asia as candidates. You had better "care" Trianon. Because the Islamofascists are out to get YOU too! And this time, the US will not help unless the EU changes its tune. "This is like a little girl's game of who is friends with whom. Realpolitik is something else. " Hardly! It's the Euros who are so upset at having been left out of the "game" and not receiving any of the spoils of war, that now they are falling all over themselves trying to figure out how to fix things without loosing face or having to pay in sons and treasure. "Palmerston said Britain has no permanent alliances, just permanent interests." Realpolitik means that the US will look after its interests first and foremost this time because we have realized that the Euros are fair-weather friends. You all need to look after your interests by paying for your own defense against Islamofascism— you know, those people who are breeding sedition right on your own soil. A number of recent terrorists including the "shoe bomber" as well as several suicide jihadis in Israel were European born and bred—don't forget that. Here is an article you may want to read: "The 1930s, Again" http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson032502.asp ". . . After 30 years of listening to nauseating chanting from Teheran to Islamabad to Nablus, hearing the childish rants about "The Mother of All Battles" and "The Great Satan," and witnessing presidents from Carter to Bush burned in effigy, the ritual torching of the American flag, the misspelled banners of hatred, the thousands of paint-by-the-numbers posters of psychopaths from Khomeini to bin Laden, televised threats that sound as hideous as they are empty, Nazi-inspired anti-Semitism, embassy takeovers, oil-boycotts, hijacked planes, cars, and ships, lectures from unelected obese sheiks with long names and gold chains, peacekeepers incinerated in their sleep, murders at the Olympics, bodies dumped on the tarmac of airports, shredded diplomats, madmen in sunglasses in Iraq, Syria, and Libya, demented mullahs and whip-bearing imams in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, continual televised murders of Americans abroad, our towers toppled, our citizens butchered, our planes blown up, hooded Klansmen in Hamas and Hezbollah, killers of al-this and Islamic-that, suicide bombers, shrill turbaned nuts spouting hatred on C-SPAN broadcasts, one day the salvation of Kuwait, the next sanctions against the swallower of Kuwait, the third day fury against the sanctions against the swallower of Kuwait, the fourth day some grievance from 1953, the fifth another from A.D. 752; and all the time sanctimonious fingerpointing from Middle Eastern academics and journalists who are as bold abroad in insulting us as they are timid and obsequious under dictators at home in keeping silent, I've about had it. No mas. The problem is you, not us — you, you, you…." Full article: http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson032502.asp To paraphrase Rhett Butler: "Frankly my dear, we don't give a damn!" We will do what is best for our people and the rest of you come after. "We are all Americans," my foot! There is no "free lunch," Trianon, not any more from the US in any case. Lili
Lilith, it is so weird talking to them (the Euros) sometimes. They bash us and abuse us constantly, feel free to stab us in the back at any opportunity, then get all hurt and huffy when we say, "Okay, whatever, go it alone if you must, we're sick of funding you and your ridiculous abuse." WTF, I would be in favor of keeping NATO and even paying for it out of my much-abused tax dollars, if they acted at all rationally about the subject. But they don't. They expect us to commit cultural suicide right along with them, and get angry with us because we don't want to. Crazy people, crazy Continent. Thank God my ancestors got on that boat. :) Posted by: Susan at December 3, 2003 09:47 PMYeah! But, you have to admit the food is good—in France. ;-) Lili You are all in bed already. But, the day is still young here. Below is a comment from one of the "Healing Iraq" Bogs "The Mesopotamian". It speaks volumes! "Hi Friends, Just one quick thought I have to get off my chest, before I go to bed, late enough for a really busy day tomorrow (If God Wills). I doubt that I can sleep without telling you this. It is well known that to combat the venom of serpents, it is necessary to prepare an anti venom serum even more potent and poisonous, derived from the very poison which they are to counter. So God bless the Doctor, and speedy recovery to the patient. As for the Vipers: Pest Control. Salaam ------ Let the Euros finally "get" what it will take to combat islamic terrorism, a potent anti-venom distilled from the poison itself. Lili
There will never be an alliance between the US and India - India hates us. Simple as that. That said, Europe is nothing to worry about, because regardless, they cannot afford to spend money on their military because they have to spend just about everything on social programs. It's only going to get worse in the future, because their population is getting older and older and older. That's largely why mainland Europe is desperate to gets it's hooks into the UK. It not being a complete socialist state yet, it still has a decent economy and the ability to spend on defense. Posted by: Jeremy at December 4, 2003 02:33 AMActually Susan NATO should have been wound up after that stupid war in Kosovo. Launching an aerial bombardment of Belgrade, the first since 1941, made NATO look really superfluous and looking to throw its weight around. All we have is cheaper drugs in Europe as a consequence and Albanians controlling vice and drugs in London and Frankfurt. NATO has no Warsaw Pact, it is a US overlay across the European Union so it can retain influence. Without NATO the US will find it harder to sell equipment.....Belgium announced yesterday it will scrap 33% F-16 fighters from its air force....sell them to Iran no doubt. It is time for the US to remove 70.000 troops from Germany and 37.000 from Korea.....why they stayed so long I don't know. Susan displays a neo-colonial attitude towards Europe, but she displays an arrogance which frankly wins no friends. THE US always acts in its own interests, and tris to convince everyone of altruism, but Europe like Israel must make its own decisions about whether to build walls or whether to tear them down; and US relations with Pakistan are central to the "War on Terror" because that is where Osama bin Laden lives.......not in India..... 9/11 showed that the US does NOT set the agenda....flail and rail Susan, but bin Laden is out there; and without European Intelligence networks you will never find him........ Posted by: Trianon at December 4, 2003 07:08 AMBTW Susan when the US starts spending real money and gets an army of 750.000 rather than this small one; and stops using reservists for key functions; maybe Britain won't need to call up reservists to supply aircraft -refulleing tankers from the RAF, Arabic speakers, and an armoured division (because Turkey would not let the US Armoured Division) land and the US could not bribe enough. Britain also supplies minesweepers because apparently the Us does not have many....but that is possibly because under NATO BRitain kept the Greenland area free of Soviet mines. I do not think the US taxpayer could afford Rumsfeld's dreams......he is about 120.000 soldiers light in Iraq, and by March the real stretch will show as rotation becomes an issue. Bush should bring back the draft and raise a compulsory draft of all 18 years olds without exception of "middle class opt-outs". The war on terror has a few decades to run. Posted by: Trianon at December 4, 2003 07:41 AM"THE US always acts in its own interests, and tris to convince everyone of altruism" You betcha— as does the rest of the world. Although the EU pretends they are ever so PC and "sensitive" to the third world when in fact they are racist. Ignoring Africa, etc. while selling arms and amo (just like the US) to all who can pay. "BTW Susan when the US starts spending real money and gets an army of 750.000 rather than this small one; and stops using reservists for key functions; maybe Britain won't need to call up reservists to supply aircraft -refulleing tankers from the RAF, Arabic speakers, and an armoured division (because Turkey would not let the US Armoured Division) land and the US could not bribe enough." Let Europe and the UK as well as the rest of the world including the Arabs help pay for the war on terror. Certainly enough other countries enabled the terrorists including the EU and the Arabs!
Yes, he should, Trianon, and Europe should pay for its own defense in men and treasure instead of depending on the US to do the heavy lifting while YOU bitch. As Melanie said, use the "chocolate soldiers"—the EU has enough of them. While you are at it, build a war machine that can defend the EU against Islamic terrorism out of chocolate as well. No more free lunch from the US! That's what the American tax payer thinks. Lili NATO is a Cold War construct. It should have been deactivated when the USSR became Russia. So the UK had minesweepers keeping Soviet mines from the waters around Greenland. Who knew? I wish people would quit referring to Bush as "uneducated." Like it or not, he's got two degrees, one a masters, and completed jet fighter training which includes, inter alia, celestial navigation and aerodynamics. Saying Indians hate the U.S. is simple nonsense. Posted by: Theodopoulos Pherecydes at December 4, 2003 03:24 PMIf you did not know about NATO and its division of responsibilities you are ignorant. Perhaps becoming informed about the structure of the organisation will enrich some rather barren intellects. The US Govt knew - that is why it specifically requested them from Britain. Lilith denigrates British involvement - fine - withdraw our forces from Basra and let the National Guard take over. THe Germans can withdraw their troops from Afghanistan and the Horn of Africa and let US National Guardsmen take over. Because Mickey Mouse Television does not suggest anyone else but GI Joe is involved in fighting terror, the Munchkins before the TV screen don't understand that the US is leveraging every ally, and imploring several others like Inmdia and Pakistan to supply troops. Come March 2004 a lot of GIs are going to be very tired of a long tour of duty, and they have not much hope of relief. Posted by: Trianon at December 4, 2003 03:53 PM"I wish people would quit referring to Bush as "uneducated." Like it or not, he's got two degrees, one a masters" Never said anything of the sort, and do not even try to suggest I did. I would never denigrate a graduate of my alma mater. Posted by: Trianon at December 4, 2003 03:54 PM"No more free lunch from the US! That's what the American tax payer thinks. "
Ripping off the US taxpayer - easy money when you can get it. Posted by: Trace at December 4, 2003 04:00 PM"Yes, he should, Trianon, and Europe should pay for its own defense in men and treasure instead of depending on the US to do the heavy lifting while YOU bitch. "
"As Melanie said, use the "chocolate soldiers"—the EU has enough of them. While you are at it, build a war machine that can defend the EU against Islamic terrorism out of chocolate as well."
Whether it is justified or not; it is designed to stop the merger of British Aerospace and Boeing; and instead build up EADS......to stop the US from acquiring HDW for submarines and to build up DCN. It is to standardise the procurement platform and coordinate the European borders on the Black Sea, and Baltic, and to integrate the Russians into the defence of Europe. You are far too simplistic. You badmouth British troops in Iraq, attack a country which gave the US aid when it needed it, and is the only ally it really has over Iraq.......so do not be surprised if the country looks elsewhere for long term alliances. Blair is finished politically, and almost ripe for plucking because he stuck his neck out for the US...and all we get from you so remote from the terrorism of which you speak is the kind of whining we associate with Paris Hilton and her kind of spoiled brat. Posted by: Trianon at December 4, 2003 04:07 PM"I wish people would quit referring to Bush as "uneducated." Like it or not, he's got two degrees, one a masters, and completed jet fighter training which includes, inter alia, celestial navigation and aerodynamics. Sorry, Theo, (love your name BTW) despite his "degrees" the man is uneducated. That is a fact. If your daddy had as much money as his daddy you could have degrees from Harvard and Yale as well. As for the fighter training, he was "missing" for a whole year. . . He might be "charming" and have political savvy and all that. However, he is a dumb-bunny when it comes to anything cerebral. He is not well read nor well educated nor well mannered, despite his "degrees"! Want to see his grades? Google it. They are mediocre at best.
Hmm—well, that is rather better than being simple, Tri. ;-) "You badmouth British troops in Iraq, attack a country which gave the US aid when it needed it, and is the only ally it really has over Iraq.......so do not be surprised if the country looks elsewhere for long term alliances." Could you show me where I "badmouthed British troops"? Neither have I attacked the UK. I state facts such as the EU is anti-Semitic. Prove it is not so. I was against this war for your information. What bugs me though is the duplicity of the Euros—UK included! By that I mean the people— who clearly don't know of the rot from within they have, and continue to support. "Blair is finished politically, and almost ripe for plucking because he stuck his neck out for the US...and all we get from you so remote from the terrorism of which you speak is the kind of whining we associate with Paris Hilton and her kind of spoiled brat." On the contrary, it is the Euros who are whining. As I told you, we don't give a damn what the Euros or anyone else does or thinks. They have proven to be false friends. They, the UK included, should pay for their own defense—which will cost a BUNDLE. When you get it together do let us know:
------- I am all for alliances. However, alliances that are good for the US as well as the Euros. So far, the Euros have benefitted from the sweat, blood and tears of the US tax payers for decades. Those days are over! As for Boeing. Build you own planes! Time for you to pick up the check for a change. :-D Lili (Aside: Who is Paris Hilton or are you talking about the hotel in which case I don't get it?) http://www.who2.com/parishilton.html http://primetimetv.about.com/cs/tvstars/a/hiltonparis.htm
"You could have looked this up yourself Lilith." Now why would I do that? Silly Romy, I don't waste my time on popular culture and tabloids. But, you certainly seem to go for that. ;-) It's a Euro thing, especially a Brit thing those tacky tabloids. Amazing how many people across the pond appear to know all about US schlocky sit-coms, talk shows and air-head socialite scandals. Better to pay attention to the real issues in life, Romy. "You want Europeans to build their own planes.....you bet they can......and if things go on they can push Boeing off the map" Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah! ROTFLMAO!!! Are you about 13 or so, Romy? I love pissing contests. They really separate the men from the boys. We cannot wait for you to do so. PULEEEZZZE do it. Do it soon. Build an aircraft carrier or two and a few nuclear subs and whatever else you will need to defend "old" Europe. We'll watch. Pass the chips and beer please.
You silly woman - we have nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers ! You are so amusing in your ignorance. India has an aircraft carrier just purchased from Russia; China is buying one......there is nothing novel in this......Britain invented the aircraft carrier. The US needs to defend Britain for without RAF Fylingdales the US NORAD system does not work; and without Menwith Hill and GCHQ the NSA becomes irrelevant. You are so provincial......good that you do not hold political office, you would be working with bin Laden undermining US security. The US Intelligence Services work hand in glove with British, French, German, Spanish, Italian and Turkish Security Services.....they know what's going on, you Lilith do not. Your last offering was so childish....truly pathetic.......time you started to use reason in place of hormonal emotionalism Posted by: Romulus at December 4, 2003 09:51 PM"You silly woman - we have nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers ! You are so amusing in your ignorance. India has an aircraft carrier just purchased from Russia; China is buying one......there is nothing novel in this......Britain invented the aircraft carrier." Sure you have some—a very few. Count up how many against the US. Build some more that would be useful, you clever man. Europe is always criticizing the US for spending too much on defense. So, spend your own money. "You are so provincial......good that you do not hold political office, you would be working with bin Laden undermining US security. Hmmm—That's what I get for having been born in a HUGE non-American city and lived abroad for so many years—provincialism. ;-) "The US Intelligence Services work hand in glove with British, French, German, Spanish, Italian and Turkish Security Services.....they know what's going on, you Lilith do not." Sure, they know what is going on. That is why we have more and more terrorists, have not caught ObL et al. and let the Saudis off scot free. "Your last offering was so childish....truly pathetic.......time you started to use reason in place of hormonal emotionalism" Just as childish as this: "You want Europeans to build their own planes.....you bet they can......and if things go on they can push Boeing off the map" Oh, when a man can't make a point he must use the old "hormone" excuse. Sounds just like a Muslim or Trianon. BTW—How do you know I am a woman? LOL Just what IS your point, Romy? You keep defending something. Tell us what it is—please. That you are just as good if not better than the US? That Europe can go it alone, that you don't need the US? That you are so good, and have a war machine all ready to go to fight the evil Muslim empire or the last vestiges of broken Communism? That Europe can protect the world without peeing in their pants? Good, say I. Do that! Go for it. Send your sons and treasure. Show us how good the EU is. So far, they are not coming up to the plate. You know Romy, blood can only go one way, either to the brain or in the other direction. You appear to be testosterone impaired and suffering from a lack of blood to a vital organ—your brain. Do the world a favor, make the other one your water carrier. ;-) Your favorite, know nothing American. Lili Posted by: Lilith at December 4, 2003 10:46 PMYou are histrionic. I am not the one telling Europe to split from the US, you are. You are the one saying Europe should compete with the Us in a/carriers and submarines......noone in Europe talks this way. The Us faces no threat from Europe and Europe no threat from the US.....so why your outbursts. Aircraft carriers do not last long against a submarine of the Oscar class which can destroy a whole carrier-group with its 24 Granit anti-ship missiles. The Us is trying to mothball a/carriers as they are extremely vulnerable to modern missiles and require a destroyer screen. That is why Rumsfeld is trying to get bases in Central Asia. Aircraft carriers do not have the range in the MIddle East as you cannot overfly Syria or Iran...... It is petulance the way you vilify Europe and tell it to compete with the USA. Why ? The competition to the USA is comin from China, and Taiwan is the big issue.....stop being so childish with Europe and concentrate on your enemies Posted by: Romulus at December 5, 2003 07:53 AMThere is no "evil Muslim empire " save in the minds of racist xenophobes. Posted by: Romulus at December 5, 2003 07:54 AM"You are histrionic. I am not the one telling Europe to split from the US, you are. You are the one saying Europe should compete with the Us in a/carriers and submarines......noone in Europe talks this way." Yes, Romy. . . and you are illogical as always. But, I understand. You are merely a man and not up to the task. ;-) I am simply saying that Europe should pay for its own defense. No one in Europe (at least the people) talks this way because they don't want to spend the money on their own defense. They prefer that the US tax payer continues to foot that bill because it will put a dent into their good life. Now, just recently, (you may or may not have noticed) because the US has said, "Pay your own way," The EU is trying very hard to get a united defense program together for itself. But, of course, they cannot agree. . . "It is petulance the way you vilify Europe and tell it to compete with the USA. Why ? The competition to the USA is comin from China, and Taiwan is the big issue.....stop being so childish with Europe and concentrate on your enemies" All I am saying is pay your own way. That is not vilification! It is not an issue of "competing" it is an issue of fairness. It is not fair that Europe should have the benefits of having the US tax payer pay for their defense. Are you saying that China and Taiwan are enemies of the US? The only "competition" from them currently is economic. The enemy is Islamic terrorism, and that, is also an enemy of Europe. "There is no "evil Muslim empire " save in the minds of racist xenophobes." There is an Islamic empire; it says so in the Qu'ran. Once or twice it was at the gates of Vienna. It is currently 1.5 BILLION people strong, (that is 1/5 of the world's population) and is in almost every country. It is estimated that 10% of those Muslims are radicals. That's a lot of potential terrorists, Romy—millions of them. Of course, this time they are more likely to take over via breeding that actual warfare. The average Muslim woman has 6 children. The average European has. . . not nearly enough. Even the Pope has urged the Italians to have more babies. And, the Catholic Church has commented on radical Islam here: “in all of its history, Islam has shown a warlike and conquering face”; that “for almost a thousand years, Europe lived under its constant threat” http://213.92.16.98/ESW_articolo/0,2393,41931,00.html Why don't you have a nice cup of coco and read the Qu'ran or the hadiths or some of the writings of those lovely Islamic clerics from anywhere—even the UK. Here is a link to excellent Qu'ranic translations: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/quranindex.html Or you could go to this website and check out who pays for what in the world of defense since you are always throwing your manly knowledge of war machinery about: http://www.defenselink.mil/pubs/allied_contrib2002/02-Chptr2/02-Chptr_2tx.html Or you could read Bernard Lewis, Ibn Warraq, V.S. Naipaul, Anis Shorrosh, Bat Yeor, Oriana Fallaci, Robert Spencer, Srdja Trifkovic, Serge Trifkovic or any one of dozens of other authors on the subject of the radical Islamic threat to world peace. That should keep you busy all weekend. ;-) Lili Posted by: Lilith at December 5, 2003 11:46 AMChina is an enemy of Taiwan, or have you not heard ? Go back to Qemoy and look up the history. You commentaries on Muslims are racist....just look at phrases like "The average Muslim woman has 6 children. The average European has. . . not nearly enough. " Just what is your fecundity Lilith ?
You are really intemperate and exceedingly xenophobic especially towards Muslims. It is very strange how you try to polarise discussion and vilify groups,but frankly wild accusations about Muslims in general will just make you appear to be a fire-raiser. Posted by: Romulus at December 5, 2003 01:34 PM"China is an enemy of Taiwan, or have you not heard ? Go back to Qemoy and look up the history." So, what is your point about that Romy? The US does not view either one as its enemy. And Europe should still pay for its own defense. Having its own war machine is not "competing" with the US as you have put it. "You commentaries on Muslims are racist....just look at phrases like "The average Muslim woman has 6 children. The average European has. . . not nearly enough. "
"Pope to Italians: Have more babies" The Polish-born pope called Italy's declining birth rate, one of the lowest in the world, "another grave threat that bears upon the future of this country, one which is already conditioning its life and its capacity for development." http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/11/14/pope.speech/
LOL! I have replaced myself in the true spirit of zpg. "Why are you at war with the world's Muslims ? Bizarre. A few terrorists like Mugniyeh and bin Laden and you want an Endloesung for Muslims. It is really quite sad." "Endlösung for Muslims"? They, the radicals, want one for the whole world. They want to KILL or convert us all haven't you heard? "Sad"? Sad??? It's horrific! I am not at war with the world's Muslims! They declared war on us and have attacked us all over the world. I supposed you failed to notice. While all Muslims are not terrorist ALL Islamic terrorist are Muslims! And there are quite a few of them and more being bred all the time. "You are really intemperate and exceedingly xenophobic especially towards Muslims. It is very strange how you try to polarise discussion and vilify groups,but frankly wild accusations about Muslims in general will just make you appear to be a fire-raiser." What a lot of CRAP! Wild accusations? What wild accusations. Produce even ONE! I tell you to read the Qu'ran and the hadiths, which every Muslim, radical or otherwise, quotes to see where Muslim racism and bigotry against the "other" come from and you call me xenophobic. It is the Qu'ran that is xenophobic, it is Islam that is misanthropic and misogynistic. Most people who claim "Islam is Peace" have never read the Qu'ran or the hadiths. Have you? Even the Catholic Church, which is pretty PC nowadays, has stated that Islam is war like and has been since its inception. Islam was BORN of the sword and conquered via the sword. That is another FACT! I live in the most ethnically and racially diverse nation on the planet. Muslims live in peace side by side with others in the US. No one is attacking or harassing them because for the most part, Muslims integrate into US society and do not place Islam above loyalty to the US. That is not the case in Europe where they are ghettoized. It is a huge concern that Islam, in its extreme, does not recognize anything but the Islamic Ummah, instead of the nation state. I am not for rounding up all Muslims and deporting them or putting them into camps. I am for watching certain Muslims, particularly mosques and certain clerics, to ensure that there are not secret terrorists among them. I am for "bombarding" the Islamic world with information about the 21st century and other cultures besides Islam—instead of using real bombs to kill Muslims. I am for fighting terrorists with all that we have on all fronts and with all means available!!! Most of all, I am for a Muslim Reformation, as are many scholars such as the ones named above whom you should read. I was against the war without allies. But, I am also against Islamic terrorism. If that makes me a racist, well then, I am in good company. Tell it to the loved ones of innocents whom the Islamofacists murdered or maimed, Romy.
On Wednesday 02/07/2003 "Islam and apostasy" Summary: Details or Transcript: In the earliest days of Christianity, apostasy was regarded as an unpardonable sin, and in many parts of the Islamic world, apostasy is still a capital offence. Well, Islamic apostasy is the new book by secularist Muslim author Ibn Warraq. It’s the subject of his new book; you may remember when we interviewed Ibn Warraq a few weeks after the September 11 terrorist attack. He’s the author of "Why I am Not a Muslim," one of the most forceful and least politically correct presentations on Islam you’ll ever read – and the name Ibn Warraq is a pseudonym for obvious reasons. His new book is called Leaving Islam. It’s part history of dissent and apostasy in Islam, and part collection of testimonials from former Muslims from all around the world, some writing anonymously, others willing to risk their lives by using their real names, and all writing about what it was about the Islamic faith that made them want to leave it. They include Muhammad bin Abdullah, who writes an extraordinary essay about how his movement away from Islam began with the nightmare of Bangladesh in 1971. . . " Full text here: http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s892997.htm ----- Read Ibn Warraq if you only read a little, Romy—and for God's sake READ the Qu'ran and understand Islam for what it is a misanthropic, misogynistic social, political and religious system in dire need of Reformation and enlightenment so that Muslims can come out of the dark ages and into the 21st century. Unfortunately, no one but Muslims can affect such a Reformation. It must come from within. Lili "ALL Islamic terrorist are Muslims" Lilith - spell tautology.
The fastest growing population in the Us is that of children born to immigrant populations in the US over the past decade. I am gratified to know there are no ghettoes in the United States.......that must mean an awful lot of urban regeneration since I last lived there....still 'trickle down' must be working by now. How many Muslims live in your city Lilith ? How many do you associate with each day ?
"ALL Islamic terrorist are Muslims" "Lilith - spell tautology." Well, they are not Lutherans, Catholics, Hidus, Budhists, Calvinists or anything else—THEY ARE MUSLIMS!!! I repeat: All Muslims are not terrorists but, ALL ISLAMIC TERRORISTS ARE MUSLIMS!!!
You are an absolute genius, Romy! Catholics have been "secular" for a long, long time—especially Italian and US Catholics. The Irish Catholics are still working on it. ;-) That has nothing to do with WHY the Pope is calling for more women to have babies. READ THE ARTICLE! "The fastest growing population in the Us is that of children born to immigrant populations in the US over the past decade." Certainly, so what? What is your POINT? "I am gratified to know there are no ghettoes in the United States.......that must mean an awful lot of urban regeneration since I last lived there....still 'trickle down' must be working by now." There are many "ghettoes" in the US. Not too many Muslim ghettoes, though. "How many Muslims live in your city Lilith ? How many do you associate with each day ?" No idea, but quite a few. I do see Muslims virtually EVERY day and interact with them too. My favorite part is when you offer your hand to shake and they recoil as if you are offering a snake. Always a good test of radicalism. ;-) Lots of veiled and scarfed women walking about also. But, in the US we don't have the issue of the veil being outlawed as is the struggle in France and Germany. "I live in the most ethnically and racially diverse nation on the planet. Muslims live in peace side by side with others in Great Britain." No you don't! That is statistically the US not the UK. "No doubt it would be much better if they were Protestants, but Calvinism does not accept converts" What is your POINT, Romy? I can't ever figure out what the HELL you want to say? Are there no Islamic terrorists in the EU? Lots have been arrested. Are there no Muslims calling for sharia law in the EU? Lots have been quoted. Have no Muslims been deported from the EU? Lots have! Here is an excellent quote from: ". . .Al-Muhajiroun’s leader, Sheikh Omar Bakri, has repeatedly declared his intention to “transform the West into Dar Al-Islam [the House of Islam]” and establish the Sharia on British soil: “I want to see the black flag of Islam flying over Downing Street.” He says that Muslims will convert the West to Islam “through ideological invasion . . . without war and killing.” A key element of this ideological invasion will be a “fifth column which is able to put pressure on the enemies of Islam and to be able to support the Muslim Ummah [community] world-wide.” . . ." Full article: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=9788 What is your point? That EVERYTHING is the fault of the US and Islam is the "Religion of Peace"? What are you trying to say except "white" if I say "black"? When you finally do make a point, Romy would you mind posting some supporting material for a change instead of just your convoluted PC opinion? Lili Posted by: Lili at December 6, 2003 11:12 PM"of just your convoluted PC opinion?" Ha Ha Ha - first time I've been accused of that, but I suppose from the extreme Right everything looks left !
Only the hijab ? you ought to see the full chadoor....you miss out Lilith on the Muslim Ninjas floating across the High Street to pay their Visas bills at the bank and show the occasional high-heel under the floor-sweeping gown.
Are you Catholic Lilith ? Surely the Pope is not encouraging you to start a bigger family ? Simply this Lilith, Muslims have no hope of redemption, they are not Calvinist and therefor not of the Elect. Calvinists can tolerate them simply because they are damned like other non-Calvinists. Posted by: Romulus at December 7, 2003 07:46 AM? ?I've been accused of that, but I suppose from the extreme Right everything looks left !" I am a life-long Democrat currently thinking of going Libertarian—hardly the "right winger" you assume. What is your POINT, Romy? "Only the hijab ? you ought to see the full chadoor....you miss out Lilith on the Muslim Ninjas floating across the High Street to pay their Visas bills at the bank and show the occasional high-heel under the floor-sweeping gown."' There are plenty of chadors, abayas, etc. in the US. No one cares. I travel a great deal and thus, see them all the time. What is your POINT, Romy? "Do you dress quite so modestly ? LOL" No, I dress as provocatively as possible because I live in the West and I like to bug simple men like you. What is your POINT, Romy? "Are you Catholic Lilith ? Surely the Pope is not encouraging you to start a bigger family ?" No, I am not Catholic. I believe in ZPG, replace oneself and no more! What is your POINT, Romy? "Simply this Lilith, Muslims have no hope of redemption, they are not Calvinist and therefor not of the Elect. Calvinists can tolerate them simply because they are damned like other non-Calvinists." Oh, thanks! That explains everything. "Calvinists" "Redemption." OKeeeey [rolls eyes] I'm done here. You had your rope and have done rather well with it. It's too early in the Season for fruitcakes! Lili Posted by: Lilith at December 7, 2003 10:03 AMOoops—cut this part out of the post. ". . .Sheikh Omar Bakri" is a British MI5 agent acting as a honeypot to attract flies. It is the silent ones we have to watch, even in israel they never suspect the suicide bomber dressed as an Orthodox Jew. . ." Of course, and so are ObL and Mullah Omar and all the rest of them. In fact, Mohammed himself was an M15 agent given that he was the loudest proselyter for Islam. He really hates having a female, a lesser creature, as boss. ;-)
Lili Posted by: Lilith at December 7, 2003 10:13 AM"I am a life-long Democrat currently thinking of going Libertarian—hardly the "right winger" you assume. "
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