John Le Carre has always been a bit like this. He is a novelist, he wrote some very good books, but he is no philospher. Don't get overly excited.

If you read his novels you see the thread of cynicism, esp in The Spy Who Came In or The Honourable Schoolboy. He has always had a wariness about the Americans, and it probably is shared within the Services, after all the CIA was actively working against MI6 in the Middle East in backing Nasser and Mossadeq.

As he has gotten older he has become a bit histrionic. The certainties of the Cold War have turned into something much worse since, and vast swathes of humanity in Central Europe and the former USSR do live miserable lives and it was supposed to be so much better.

So, I can see some merit in some of his words, but to get attention he has to emulate Michael Moore and it makes him seem a bitter old man, rather than someone making several good points.

Are you sure 'neo-con' is code for 'Jew'? Are Bush and Rumsfeld Jewish? Perle and Wolfowitz?

Melanie,it is a waste of time trying to defeat the evil of ant-semitism using the words of reason as however much one argues against it, until the day the world is redeemed,it is a given of human existence.It pops up even as it dies down.As ultimate proof,even Jews are more than subject to it!But sudden and unexpected death-defying events lasting no longer than a few days fulfilling and demonstrating the words of God are the only arguments one needs.

Le Carre is of course from the Arabist tradition of the British upper spookery. As were and perhaps are many of the FO mandarins. Lawrence of Arabia is still their guiding star.

To be fair, wasn't "The Little Drummer Girl" a rather withering look at the naivety of lefty terror adulators?

It's definitely a moral sickness - I still hope that it's not yet a mortal sickness.

Yes, M. Wilkins Neo-Con is used by some anti-Semites as a code word for Jew. Also if you see the phrase "Neo-Con Cabal" it may indicate the person using it has Neo-Judenhass views. e.g. Tam Dayell.

"Lawrence of Arabia is still their guiding star."

Somehow I think you misunderstand Lawrence and his role. Had he been such a 'guiding star' I doubt John Hume Ross or Thomas Edward Shaw would have appeared on his CV.

At least you did not bring St. John Philby into the equation.

If Arabists in the F.O. serve this country's interests, so be it. It is after all our national interest that is paramount.

"It is after all our national interest that is paramount".

And not the interest of an Arab country. Nor the interest of individuals motivated by strong personal prejudices.

Also, of course, one would not wish the interests of one's nation to be immoral ones. At one time, Germans considered it to be in their national interest to destroy Jews, gypsies and others.

"It is after all our national interest that is paramount."

Quite right, too. Of course it is those same Arabists in the FO who have been working so very hard for the last three decades to ensure that Britain is dissolved and its remnants absorbed into the Belgian Empire.

Defenders of British national interest? Institutionalised traitors more like.

John le Carre is a bitter, senile, anti American, Jew hating, old bugger. Frederick Forsyth has surpassed him a long time ago as a writer and as an anlayst.

Mr Carr, to be honest I'd prefer that Britain was dissolved into the Belgian Empire rather than the American alternative. And yet Tony Blair considers himself to be a 'good European'. What a joke. Time to shove off now Tony. You've done quite enough damage to this country, thank you very much.

Freddie Forsyth has been reduced to parodying himself in the Guardian 'Diary' once a week. Times must be hard in Hertfordshire.

Does anyone take him seriously these days?

M Wilkins

Tha alternative, sir/madam, is independence.

From an interview with Melanie Phillips (Guardian 07 Mar 2003):

"I've been very influenced by what's called the neo-con movement. They're not conservatives. They define themselves famously as - and this is exactly how I would define myself - as liberals who have been mugged by reality."

No mention here of 'neo-con' being code for Jewish.

I heard John le Carre on Saturday morning, and thought that he sounded terribly ill. His speech was so slow and laboured that he sounded like a man with one foot in the grave. I could not work up my usual irritation at his chattering class prejudice and ignorance.Take him to a Doctor, someone.

JT,
Maybe, but Pat Buchanan and his ilk use the term to refer to Jews and likewise the anti-war crowd and the far left in the States also use the term "surreptitiously" when refering to Jews in the Govt.
It was meant to be conservatives who left the liberal fold.

What's the polar opposite of anti-semitism? judofascism? semantics aside, I'm curious to know.

The Belgian Empire I think not.

It is time to have a Constitution that specifies the Official Language of the EU is English, and all citizens shall learn English and all official documents shall be in English.

All armed forces within the European Union shall be commanded by the United Kingdom, and all military forces shall be under The Crown.

I cannot understand why Thatcher, Major or Blair have failed to make this clear, and why this was not carried out in May 1945 when it was clearly the language of the victors.

John, it's better to take the long view, I think.
Surely the Official Language of the EU will one day be Chinese?

Fergus: I do believe something like "lack of prejduice" would cover it nicely.

There is a word "Judeophile", which, like "Anglophile" or "Francophile", means someone who likes and studies that culture. But I don't see it as a polar opposite to anti-Semitism. To me, "anti-Semitism" means, at core, seeing and treating Jews differently from everyone else. So it makes sense that the polar opposite is "seeing and treating Jews like everyone else."

Fergus, the opposite of anti-semitism is philo-semitism. The latter denotes people who generally like and admire Jews (it may be hard for you to imagine such people exist, so see the Julie Burchill item below).

"Anglophile" I understand

"Francophile" strange concept

What I fail to comprehend is WHY these "celebs" get their say! It's not as if they are experts on anything but their navels. In the US we have to listen to barely literate sports "heroes" and anorexic, vacuous film stars spew their unintelligible views all over the media.

And why does anyone care what these people think? What have they ever done to move the world forward? Bulking up on steroids, writing drivel for the masses and memorizing lines is not my idea of a life well lived!

Lili

Lilith, celebrities are America.....what would your home be without Martha Stewart to guide you ? Could you really envisage facing each day without sparkling words from Oprah or Jerry Springer ?

Could you imagine an actor in The White House, one from Hollywood, I mean, could America ever elect one ?

Could you imagine any actor becoming President after being Governor of California ? In the past, or future ?

There you are then. Celebrities have nothing to add to American political life !

This, from the inhabitant of a nation that had a full-scale, massive nervous breakdown when Princess Di fell over.

Susan get back to your Krispy Kreme donuts, love.

Not everyone in the UK worships the Windsors, hard as that may be to accept.

Well, not everyone in the US worships Martha Stewart or Jerry Springer either (which is the implication my post replied to).

And I don't eat Krispy Kremes, not that there's anything wrong with the people who do eat them. So pathetic, this neurotic Euro-need to feel oh-so-superior to someone, somewhere, somehow. Sneer On, Harvest Moon.

Susan:
"This, from the inhabitant of a nation that had a full-scale, massive nervous breakdown when Princess Di fell over. "

Amen to that! I never, never, never, could understand all those tears over a spoiled aristocratic, jet setting woman who never did a hard days work in her life, whose public persona apparently was a pout. Her moronic brother should have been beaten over the head for his snarkiy speech. Who on earth coined that oxymoron "Peoples Princess" anyway?

As for any citizen of the U.K. who wants to take his marching orders from Brussels, all I can say is too bad that the Bedlam House for the Insane (now the Imperial War Museum) in Lambeth is no longer in operation.

"Lilith, celebrities are America.....what would your home be without Martha Stewart to guide you ? Could you really envisage facing each day without sparkling words from Oprah or Jerry Springer ?

Could you imagine an actor in The White House, one from Hollywood, I mean, could America ever elect one ?

Could you imagine any actor becoming President after being Governor of California ? In the past, or future ?

There you are then. Celebrities have nothing to add to American political life !"

Susan,

I,for one, grow more convinced every day of the the European's clear and obvious superior cultural and political understanding of the world.

agentazure

The only thing that the Europeans gave the world in the past century were appeasement, anti Semitism, the Holocaust, World War I and World War II, along with the failed ideologies of Communism, Socialism, and Nazism. Amongst the other humane, brilliant leaders the Eurotrash foisted upon the wolrd were:
Lenin, Stalin, Khruschev, Brezhnev, Andropov, Mussolini, Hitler, Antonescu, Ceaucescu, Franco, Laval, Petain, Novotny, Horthy, Kadar, Gomulka, Zhivkov, the Greek Colonels, Tito, Milosovic, Ludendorff, Salazar. You have no real confidence in your culture that your countires will be Islamic within two generations. So shove your superior political understanding up the high hole of your bugger!

emma, you're flogging the wrong person. I'm with you 100% I was being sarcastic. in that last post. Europeans are very nearly as indocternated with hate and misinformation as Muslims. It's appalling.

This, from the inhabitant of a nation that had a full-scale, massive nervous breakdown when Princess Di fell over.

Posted by: Susan at December 2, 2003 09:22 PM

Only from neurotic women frustrated at their own inadequacy. What was your personal reaction ?

"So pathetic, this neurotic Euro-need to feel oh-so-superior to someone, somewhere, somehow. Sneer On, Harvest Moon. "

Poor Susan. It is not a need: it is fact. You let your feelings of inferiority surface too often dear.

"appeasement, anti Semitism, the Holocaust, World War I and World War II, along with the failed ideologies of Communism, Socialism, and Nazism"

"Appeasement" in the 1970s was called "detente"

Just why was the USA too frightened to start a nuclear war over Berlin. It never threatened war with the USSR and now backs down when China or North Korea rattle sabres.

Why is Israel to frightened to fight Iran, why did it fail to fight Syria or Iraq ?

Why is Israel so afraid of Iran ?

Germany had huge air power in 1938 as Charles Lindbergh and Joseph Kennedy pointed out. The USA was frightened of Germany, and never produced a tank equivalent to the Germans or Russians.

It seems responsible to have "detente" with those you cannot beat. Chamberlain was rational.....the Luftwaffe was far too powerful and the German Army just huge.

Only the USSR had armed forces big enough, but poorly trained. In 1938-42 the USA would have been pulverised by Germany which is why they wisely declared neutrality on 5 September 1939; and refused to fight on 15 JUne 1940.

They spelled "appeasement" as "Neutrality Act"....like Israel they knew their limits.

Why are people so intent on using more than one handle (as if we didn't know)? Look at Romulus and Trianon for example:

Trianon address: cfd@hotmail.com

Romulus address: cvbcvb@hotmail.com; cjd@hotmail.com

And what is your point ? I see no similarity apart from hotmail.com which everyone and anyone uses

How do I post anonymously like you Discoverer...it always asks me for an email address which I make up....how do you avoid doing that ?

If you see no similarity, Trace, then I offer my sincere sympathies to your family and employer (if any). Try this:

Trianon address: cfd@hotmail.com

Romulus: cjd@hotmail.com

Work it out yet?

In any event, "cjd" is a perfectly apposite moniker. It could very well explain his disgusting views.

"How do I post anonymously like you Discoverer"

Posting anonymously on the internet is an oxymoron Romulus/Trianon. Melanie can, if she so chooses, have access to all our real identities.

To our rather boisterous American friends.
There's no reason to take it personally.

America is the land of Monica Lewinsky, Enron,
Jeb Bush and McDonalds. Be proud of your culture!
There's no reason to be ashamed of it. Hands across the sea and all that.

And, inter alia, Britain is the land of cloth caps, warm beer, Coronation Street, a shambolic health and education system, and rampant anti-Semitism.

The fact is that virtually all original thought, enterprise, and exchange now takes place in the "boisterous" United States, as opposed to Europe, and particularly Britian, which only has an ancient past to look back to for glory. If in any doubt, just look at the number of Nobels won by Americans or Jews since World War II and compare that list with Britain's shameful record (do exclude Jews, please).

As Mary Douglas once put it, "where there's dirt there's life." And that is exactly why America is thriving and boisterous and Europe is dull as ditchwater and dying.

One can't blame Wilkins though: Britain has lost an Empire and still hasn't found a role that doesn't include almost complete dependency on the United States for any remaining prestige on the world stage.

Put it another way: when one lives in a pygmy nation like Wilkins, it's easy to understand both his superficial arrogance which is born of inferiority, and also his constant absurd desire to fight well above the natural weights of himself and his country respectively.

Britain has lost an Empire and still hasn't found a role that doesn't include almost complete dependency on the United States for any remaining prestige on the world stage"

Read Irwin Steltzer in today's Times. He thinks Blair has pirouetted away from that into the embrace of France and Germany.........

To return to Melanie's original post, I accept le Carre's right to his own views. Making a case for their illegitimacy, as Melanie does all too often I'm afraid, is wrong. Yes, disagree. Prove le Carre mistaken. But beating him with the moral stick of anti-semitism is beyond censorship since it attacks the person and not his words.

I suppose it will take mammoth overkill to make people understand the negative effect of this dirty tactic. I might volunteer to help here. Accordingly, I let it be known that, although I disdain the seminal involvement of individual jews in the two marxisms, I bear no bad feeling towards the jewish as a people, quite the contrary. However, my next post concerning jews on Melanie's blog will be a little rough. Watch for the response. Will it be factual or emotional? If it is emotional, will it be sincere or merely strategic?

By the way, Pooh, you do jews no service. I would hope that a few will stand up and tell you so, too.

Guessedworker....good points.

Q: " Will it be factual or emotional? "

A: The second

Pooh can the land of Newton, Darwin, Churchill and Shakespeare really be called a 'pygmy nation'? I am enormously proud of this country, and enormously proud to be British. And surely it's better to be a citizen 'pygmy' nation than a troublesome adolescent one?

". If in any doubt, just look at the number of Nobels won by Americans or Jews since World War II and compare that list with Britain's shameful record (do exclude Jews, please)."

Is it shameful ?

Still, at least Japan and Taiwan can produce all those technical goods that make Pooh so arrogrant and bombastic.......I don't know how many Nobel prizes are won in Japan or China.....even when I do include Jews.......still, they do allow my PC to function, and my consumer goods........can Americans make TV sets nowadays ?

"Lilith, celebrities are America.....what would your home be without Martha Stewart to guide you ? Could you really envisage facing each day without sparkling words from Oprah or Jerry Springer ? "John of Gaunt

Actually, John, I was doing Martha before she WAS "Martha." I learned that in "old" Europe, just as Martha did—specifically France. She is after all of Polish extraction—"new" Europe you know, where they don't know about such things as elegant living because they were not rescued by the US. ;-)

As to Oprah and Springer, no idea who they are because I rarely watch television (although I did watch Princess Di's funeral and heard her brother's unseemly speech). Can you enlighten me? You seem to know them.

"Could you imagine any actor becoming President after being Governor of California ? In the past, or future ?"

Certainly! Actors appear to be just as intelligent and qualified to be president as cowboys or those who attended the Grande Ecoles or Eton to be leaders of the free world.

I am really looking forward to a woman becoming president. Looks like Hillary is setting herself up for that. An intelligent woman— who is really dumb in her choice of men— cannot be any worse than an actor, a cowboy or an appeaser.

Susan, don't EAT Krispy Kremes, invest in them! Europeans would do well to learn about investing given that their pensions plans are about to fail BIG TIME.

"To our rather boisterous American friends.
There's no reason to take it personally.

America is the land of Monica Lewinsky, Enron,
Jeb Bush and McDonalds. Be proud of your culture!
There's no reason to be ashamed of it. Hands across the sea and all that."

Hmmm—I rather think of America as the home of the people who made YOUR good life possible in "old" Europe, Wilikins. The land of immigrants has invented and developed the technology that is the base for the good-life of the 20th century. Although, the Brits have worked on the DNA issue. ;-)

So, let's look at some of the above references: LOL! Is a Monica worse that say a Christine? Can you spell P-r-o-f-u-m-o? As far as we can tell Monica did not have any connection to America's enemies—other than fast foods. Ms. Monica, is not being welcomed in the US as she is in Europe; and thus far, the mistresses of presidents don't show up at their funerals with their bastard children—yet. Mc Donalds is popping up in the rest of the world, so someone must be buying their crap—even the Arabs. The Euros, particularly the Brits, have a serious weight problem just like our US porkers. Maybe it's the Bangers? Now Enron, that is of course something with which the recent Euro financial scandals cannot compare. EVERYTHING in the US is always BIGGER!

". . .can Americans make TV sets . . "

Standing on the shoulders of giants, America invents and develops, Asia improves and manufactures and Europe—uses everything with supreme conviction of its entitlement due to its superior morality, while bitching from cafe chairs that NOTHING it is never enough!

Without America, the likes of Le Carre might have been relegated to a gulag.

You see, the Islamic plans are working. Divide and conquer! How do you think you might look in a skull-cap and a full beard Wilikins et al.? ;-)

Lili

"And surely it's better to be a citizen 'pygmy' nation than a troublesome adolescent one?"

And to paraphrase Solomon when your ancestors were brutal savages (which actually was not that long ago), mine were priests in Solomon's temple.

Which nation has the second highest-number of tech start-up? Israel

Which nation has the second-largest number of significant patent applications in the world? Israel

Which nation has the second-highest number of hi tech startups? Israel

Which nation made the desert bloom? Israel

And yes, Israel, did all this despite the earnest wishes of its enemies: the hundreds of million of Arabs who have tried so hard to drive all the Jews into the sea; Europe which has done everything in its power to eliminate Israel from the world stage; and now the Left, who are picking up exactly where Goebbels, Streicher, Himmler, Heydrich, Petain, Quisling, Hitler, Stalin, left off.

And the Jews have always been considered troublesome by European gentiles; troublesome because we didn't have the good grace to all be gassed at Auschwitz where you tried so very hard to murder us all. Yes, the very same European anti-Semites who never give any credit whatsoever for the great gifts the Jews have brought to the world. For, as Einstein said: "If relativity is proved right the Germans will call me a German, the Swiss will call me a Swiss citizen, and the French will call me a great scientist. If relativity is proved wrong the French will call me a Swiss, the Swiss will call me a German, and the Germans will call me a Jew."

Better by far to be an American, or a Jew, or an Israeli, than a European whose civilization has been responsible for the most appalling crimes in every single corner of the world; whose people collaborated wholesale in the genocide of the Jewish people; whose culture reached a high-water mark hundreds of years ago, and now can only look to the past for justification.

Better by far to be part of the new world than sink into the mess and midden of decay - the decay which is consuming a dying Europe, a Europe which is, oh-so-typically, returning to all its old bigotries and hatreds.

Better by far to be on the side of the angels than a European.

"Could you imagine any actor becoming President after being Governor of California ? In the past, or future ?"

The same actor that brought your evil heroes in the Soviet Union to their knees, and freed much of Europe from the yoke of tyranny?

The same actor who made America's economy boom?

Unlike those utterly brilliant, first-rate Prime Ministers like Wilson, Heath and Callaghan (who can forget Healey's mad, utterly embarrassing dash back to the Labor conference from Heathrow after the pound was devalued and Britain's economy was ruined?) who almost destroyed Britain's economy, raped its armed forces, and decimated its health, transport, and education services? Gee, what role models. If only Reagan had been more like them. LOL.

"decimated its health"

I like decimation, it means to reduce by 10%. The Roman Legions used it to motivate their troops by executing every 10th legionnaire.

Pooh knows so little history, I do recall Denis Healey and I know he invited the IMF to discipline the Cabinet spending departments.......and the funny part is the figures he was using were wrong. There was absolutely no necessity for his spending cuts, he was hoodwinked by the Treasury.

We shall see how the US copes....under Reagan the IMF should have stepped in. Perhaps when the Chinese stop financing US deficits they might. China is like Visa to the credit junkies sucking in 86% world savings.

The same actor who made America's economy boom?"

Yes and it took Bill Clinton to reduce the deficits....which are now back with a vengeance. Any fool can grow fast on credit -- just look at China !

; troublesome because we didn't have the good grace to all be gassed at Auschwitz where you tried so very hard to murder us all"

Very good book you should read by a Frenchman about the design specs. You will see they could never have achieved your exaggerated claim.

Why did they wait until October 1942 to gas Jews ? They were gassing Russians and Poles in 1941 ? Do you have any special insight ?

which makes me wonder why you ignore Sobibor and Treblinka and Majdanek and Theresienstadt........did your friends die at Auschwitz and mine at Theresienstadt and Buchenwald or something ?

Maybe we should swap notes and see if my relative was gassed and cremated under T-4 Euthanasia program in the ovens they sent to Auschwitz in 1942......maybe your relatives were cremated in those same ovens........but mine were just handicapped rather than Jews......so probably not important to Pooh, less politically worthwhile

My dear Romulus, I have no need to feel superior to anyone because of their choices in breakfast foods, family background, or television-watching preferences. That seems to be strictly a European construct.

I might feel awed by the accomplisments of Peter Brian Medaway, Stephen Hawking or Sir Edmund Hillary, but not by some silly Euro-snob whose self-esteem seems to depend entirely on sneering at"low-class" people over their choices in breakfast foods.

Euro-snobbery - it's what's been holiding you back for ever so long. Really and truly. We in the US, Canada and Australia have ditched it by and large, and prospered thereby. Perhaps you "Old Europeans" should try it as well.

How can you be proud to be British, M Wilkins?

I am relieved, pleased, occasionally ashamed, often exasperated and, on the whole, glad to be a British citizen but how on *earth* can one be *proud* of something so incidental as being born before 21/12/82 in the UK?! (After 31/12/82, it ceased to be an automatic right for anyone merely born in the UK)

I am not a Brit-bashing urban, metropolitan Jew (though I have a number of friends who are) I rather like Britain, but please don't let us for one moment start to be PROUD of it. Pride should be in achievement, should it not? Not mere birth!

" Pride should be in achievement, should it not? Not mere birth!"

Ah, yes, well that is the difference between Europeans, Muslims and Americans. Both Euros and Muslims appear to be resting on the performance of past generations. Beats us as to why!

Americans only care about what YOU have done in YOUR life, not who your ancestors were. While GW may have enjoyed meeting the queen, I hardly doubt that he felt awed at being in the presence of someone who was truly accomplished. After all, what HAS she done with her life but be a parasite with a (silly looking) tiara?

So, what have you all done lately? ;-)

As for the self appointed "royalty" of Saudi Arabia.

What have they done—EVER—except breed Islamic terrorism? The Saudis are not exactly known for having produced "high" culture through the ages. And today–well, the oil ticks are known for purchasing Western whores on the Riviera and spending millions $$$ per day on un-Islamic decadence while their people suffer.

But, "Islam is Peace" and was a conduit for human progress 1,000 years ago. . .

Lili

I am not sure if Lili's points are quite the same as mine, so do address mine specifically please, M Wilkins.

George Bush II separated fom his father by Clinton I

Sir Edmund Hillary is a New Zealander like Lord Rutherford

Stephen Hawking is a media type who sells books to persons who cannot read them; from himself a person that cannot write them. I prefer the work of Sir Harry Kroto myself, but more importantly is the fact that this country has a long history and unlike other countries with such a long history as a nation state - Poland, France - it has survived with no occupation since the Normans.....and that is a remarkable achievement to have history and heritage preserved over a thousand years.

We are not here to please Americans or anyone else. It is our country and we may recover it when Blair falls (hopefully) in January.

"Since 'neo-con' is code for Jew"

Poor old Irving Kristol, it took him a long time to come round to Barry Goldwater's standpoint.....

"and that is a remarkable achievement to have history and heritage preserved over a thousand years."

Yes, but what have you done lately? Like the Muslims, England and the EU depends on its history as its claim to fame. Time to do something now!

"We are not here to please Americans or anyone else. It is our country and we may recover it when Blair falls (hopefully) in January."

Well, that's a relief! I hope you will understand when Americans say we are not here to please the EU nor the rest of the world. We shall do what we need to do for our own safety, security and prosperity. Everyone else comes after!

No more free lunch! Let the EU pay for its own defense and the third world get off its collective indolent a** and put their backs into making this a better world instead of always depending on handouts, that they deflect into Swiss bank accounts, while blaming the civilized world for their self-made misery.

That included Arabs/Muslims!

;-)

Lili

PS—You may not be able to read Stephen Hawking but others certainly can. I've read several of his books and find them quite readable—even for the layman.

Romulus knows so little history, he actually thinks decimation was a Roman tactic. It's Greek, my friend, and it was used on opposing armies/civilian populations, not their own hoplites. (Because after all, THAT's an efficient fighting tactic: murder a random and blameless 10% of your fighting force and your mastery of the battlefield is guaranteed! Who needs morale?).

I founded Rome !!!!!

". If a cohort or legion mutinied, it was decimated, that is, the soldier standing in the first rank in the first file picked a number from one through ten out of a helmet, and the count off continued from that number. When the count off came to “ten” (decem in Latin), that soldier was executed, as was every tenth man after him; the other nine tenths got the message. Today people commonly extend the literal meaning of killing one tenth to the killing of any large percentage of a group. Sixty-six percent of the Usage Panel accepts this extension in the sentence The Jewish population of Germany was decimated by the war, even though it is common knowledge that the number of Jews killed was much greater than a tenth of the original population. But when the meaning is further extended to include large-scale destruction other than killing, as in The supply of fresh produce was decimated by the accident at Chernobyl, only 26 percent of the panel accepts the usage. "

http://www.bartleby.com/64/C003/091.html

"THAT's an efficient fighting tactic: murder a random and blameless 10% of your fighting force "

Read up on Admiral Byng....

Dans ce pays-ci il est bon de tuer de temps en temps un amiral pour encourager les autres !

Voltaire 'Candide'

I am pleased you find Hawking's books well-written; I do not.
The concepts are not difficult, the prose is leaden.

You have a real aversion to Europe Lilith. You attack the Third World and handouts.....do you lobby Congress about it ? They only cut $292 million of the last $9 billion handout to the Third World.

The United States can do whatever it can do effectively. It must handle its obligations, and secure itself in the Pacific and Atlantic and Middle East......not just today but in 40 years time when the Chinese and Indians or Russians or even Iran is influential; and it should begin by market-pricing all oil products so the Us is not dependent on Nigeria or Venezuela or Saudi or Iran.

"I founded Rome !!!!!

Sure, right along with Remus. LOL

I can tell by your Lobo demeanor. ;-)

"I am pleased you find Hawking's books well-written; I do not.
The concepts are not difficult, the prose is leaden."

I never said they were "well written," Romy. I said they are not difficult to read nor are they difficult to comprehend—given that they are written for the layman. As to Hawking's style— give the man a break! What sort of "style" might you have if you could only move one finger? He is a great scientist nevertheless.

"You have a real aversion to Europe Lilith." You attack the Third World and handouts.....do you lobby Congress about it ? They only cut $292 million of the last $9 billion handout to the Third World."

I have no aversion at all to Europe. I happen to adore going there and do so as often as possible. I do however, object to Europe's politics. And lately, they have proven to be false friends. That aside, the foods in France, Italy and Spain are still the best in the world.

I believe, as do many economists and intellectuals today, including the Ghanean George Ayittey and Peruvian Hernando de Soto, that the third world should help itself. Handing them more money will only produce more of the same disasters. Ayittey believes that Western aid has helped to destroy numerous countries.

You might look these people up with Google. They are most sensible in their approaches to self-help.

"The United States can do whatever it can do effectively. It must handle its obligations, and secure itself in the Pacific and Atlantic and Middle East......not just today but in 40 years time when the Chinese and Indians or Russians or even Iran is influential; and it should begin by market-pricing all oil products so the Us is not dependent on Nigeria or Venezuela or Saudi or Iran."

Romy, this is the sort of silliness that really is beyond the pale. THE WHOLE WORLD RUNS ON OIL!!!!!

It is not just the US that uses oil, what do you think makes YOUR economy go round? Your computer and all other plastics are made of petroleum products these plastics are in virtually every product used to make life comfy and "modern". How do you think the Arabs eat and get cell phones? They sell oil.

This blaming everything in the world on the US and its use of oil is pure, unadulterated BS! Do you know how many SUVs are toodling around the narrow streets of "old" Europe?

What we all need to do is to develop alternative energies and let the Gulf oil suppliers go back to camel herding. Mohammed recommended that women permit their husbands coitus even on a camel. Sounds good to me! ;-)

Lili

But Lilith be consistent...you want to leave Europe alone, well it has oil...it is spelled R U S S I A and it is where German oil comes from and gas. We have been piping Siberian gas into European homes for 10-15 years.

Russia is the secret.....with its energy costs it will dominate aluminium production and chemicals; and if it gets back to the situation in the 1880s when huge European investment in Russia from Nobel, Siemens etc built a huge empire.

You really are unaware of the vast potential within Europe; but you are dependent on inmported oil and it is priced too cheaply so it is misallocated, just as the Communists subsidised bread so it was cheaper than wheat.

"This blaming everything in the world on the US and its use of oil is pure, unadulterated BS! Do you know how many SUVs are toodling around the narrow streets of "old" Europe"

At $6-26/gallon that must be quite expensive, even on diesel nowadays. Actually Lilith they have zilch as a resale value so people are stuck with them.

Why do you always think of cars ? It is kerosene and heavy fuel oil you might want to think about; and whatever you are using to generate electricity.

"Very good book you should read by a Frenchman about the design specs. You will see they could never have achieved your exaggerated claim."
Trace.

How do you spot an anti-semite?

When they start quoting from holocaust denial
authors,such as Irving,Ball.Zundel,Garaudy etc.

ACtually Travis the book I quote is exactly the opposite of what you claim. It is a complete description of where the crematorium ovens were ordered - a small family firm in the east - and the operational procedures, and the difficulties of burning bodies on railway sleepers, there was a lot of running fat apparently. The flames from the funeral pyres illumined the targets for Russian bombers.......

It is quite an interesting study - it is actually in The British Library at Boston Spa but can be requested. I am intrigued that you see the book as Holocaust denial.......just what do you think they built the place for little boy ?

Why are you so smug with your answers ? Why don't you engage your brain and stop reciting claptrap like some Stepford wife ?

"But Lilith be consistent...you want to leave Europe alone, well it has oil...it is spelled R U S S I A and it is where German oil comes from and gas. We have been piping Siberian gas into European homes for 10-15 years."

I am consistent, Romy. I love Europe! I get into a lot of trouble for saying so in the US, particularly since I prefer France. However, I am for leaving them to their own devices as far as defense is concerned. You are rich too. Fund your own defense! I would also like to leave the Arabs to their own devices. Just sell us oil at a fair price and stay in the 7th century. No immigration, no visiting, no cultural exchanges, no educating their children in the West, no bying Euro whores on the Riviera—NOTHING! Until they become civilized, reform their misanthropic, misogynistic religion and renounce terror.

Romy, the last time I checked, Russia was not part of Europe—not now, now ever! Sure, we get oil from lots of places, even Norway and Venezuela. But, I would like to wean the world from oil and develop alternative fuels.

"At $6-26/gallon that must be quite expensive, even on diesel nowadays. Actually Lilith they have zilch as a resale value so people are stuck with them.

Why do you always think of cars ? It is kerosene and heavy fuel oil you might want to think about; and whatever you are using to generate electricity."

Gees, Trace, regardless of the "re-sale" value in Europe, people are buying the monsters like hot-cakes—even the Arabs buy the damned things.

Cars were just an example, Trace. Alternative energies can address fuel needs for cars and electrical power.

You do still use electricity in Europe don't you? ;-)

Of course, with the present US administration, there is fat chance of anything alternative being developed.

Lili

The Arabs have cheap oil - it lies under the ground, so SUVs are cheap to run.......

Alternative energy sources are a joke and use tax subsidy to pander to middle class hippies rather than power engineers. Nuclear power is the only viable alternative; or reducing consumption.

Yes in Europe we do, and are networked into a trans-Europe grid much more modern than in the US, a digital system in place of the old analogue structure in the US net. Europe has a much more modern grid because it is heavily urbanised, and has not skimped on invesment like the Edison boys.

Since you ask, France is 60% + nuclear and wheels power across Europe.

Russia is part of Europe...and that is why St Petersburg was built. You may not know the Urals, but Russia west of the Urals is Europe.......but it is hard to know how Israel qualifies for the Eurovision Song Contest or for quasi-membership of the EU with MFN status and access to EU R&D funding for hi-tech businesses.........yes, you can see Europe has a broad definition

"The Arabs have cheap oil - it lies under the ground, so SUVs are cheap to run......."

SUVs are not cheap to run anywhere, Trace. Some Arab oil, such as that in Iraq, is difficult and expensive to get out of the ground.

"Alternative energy sources are a joke and use tax subsidy to pander to middle class hippies rather than power engineers. Nuclear power is the only viable alternative; or reducing consumption."

Alternative energy sources are viable. There are windmils, for example, all over Europe. Photvoltaics are also being used, as is hydro and so on. It's just a matter of priorities. Besides, one day soon we shall run out of oil thus, it is imperative to look for and develop alternatives.

Nuclear is non-viable because no-one has yet figured out what to do with the waste.

"Yes in Europe we do, and are networked into a trans-Europe grid much more modern than in the US, a digital system in place of the old analogue structure in the US net. Europe has a much more modern grid because it is heavily urbanised, and has not skimped on invesment like the Edison boys."

Well, the reason Europe has such "advanced" grid is because you blew each other to smitherines and had to make new. The best phone grid is in the former East Germany because they had nothing before the fall of the wall that was not from WW II era.

Yes, the US should invest more in its infrastructure. And just as soon as the EU picks up the tab for its defense and more international peace keeping, then perhaps we shall have some money to do that. :-)

Regardless of the digital grid, more people in the US are on the net than anywhere in the world, Europe included. And most digital technologies are developed in the US.

"Since you ask, France is 60% + nuclear and wheels power across Europe."

Uhuh, and there was considerable worry during the heat wave this past summer. Nuclear is still very dangerous!

"Russia is part of Europe...and that is why St Petersburg was built. You may not know the Urals, but Russia west of the Urals is Europe.......but it is hard to know how Israel qualifies for the Eurovision Song Contest or for quasi-membership of the EU with MFN status and access to EU R&D funding for hi-tech businesses.........yes, you can see Europe has a broad definition"

Russia is not now and NEVER has been part of Europe despite its importation of French language and manners to the Czarist courts.

Go ask a Russian if he feels or wants to be European. LOL

Lili

"Some Arab oil, such as that in Iraq, is difficult and expensive to get out of the ground. "

Actually just the opposite is true.

"Digital Net" does not refer to the Internet but to digital reporting stations on the HT cable systems wheeling power across the continent and on the monitoring of stability of the lines. If you look at the NY blackout and see what happened in Ohio it resulted from decrepit infrastructure and analogue monitoring gear which could not react quickly to load-imbalances and caused overload protection to trip.

Nuclear power in France had a problem because of low water levels in the rivers - it was still within safety parameters. Windmills are absurd, they pollute with their HF noise causing health problems; they require huge taxsubsidy, disfigure the landscape, and cannot generate base-load.

Photovoltaic cells are expensive, and no substitute for base-load power. The only alternative to nuclear, is to reduce consumption which is probably the best solution all round anyway.

Russia is part of Europe - Gorbachev talked of "our common European home", Putin believes this too, Peter The Great did too....most Russians want close links with Western Europe which is why so many send their children to English public schools and live in London.

Melanie,

while I agree with the tenor of your argument, I think you are incorrectly defining 'neo-con'. My understanding is that this word is used describe people who have switched from being liberals to conservatives with the zeal of born-again (Christians/drinkers/smokers/ delete as you like...) 'believers'...

No David, you are 60% right....it describes flaming Lefties like Paul Johnson who switched from being a loony at The New Statesman to being a probationary Neo-Fascist.......this is called "walking the Via Mussolini" as he switched from Socialism to Fascism.

They were unbalanced on the Left and moved right across to being doctrinaire on the right; that is why they are suspect.......Michael Portillo travelled in reverse gear.....and he is always suspect

Hmm,

Does this describe Melanie?

'Right-on-sister' at New Society and then The Guardian...and then, after a 180-degree turn, rightly pointing out some of the injustices that have resulted from the bad implementation of doctrinaire liberal theories...

All very well, but I wish she would be a little more discriminating about the volume and pitch of the shriek-factor of some of her articles...while I can understand it on some issues, it is surely inappropriate and ultimately counterproductive (not to say exhausting!) to be quite as angry as nearly all her articles now appear to be.

Did people in history rail in quite the same way about moral and social breakdown etc etc and were they correct to do so? Or, is it a little bit the case, as George Orwell said, 'Hungry people do not philosophise about hunger' (ie Mel is prone to being over-reactive and perhaps disingenuous (she has to create 'good copy' for The Mail, let's face it)

"Some Arab oil, such as that in Iraq, is difficult and expensive to get out of the ground. "

"Actually just the opposite is true."

Why don't you take a look at this article, Trace:

"Oil Experts See Long-Term Risks to Iraq Reserves"

"As the Bush administration spends hundreds of millions of dollars to repair the pipes and pumps above ground that carry Iraq's oil, it has not addressed serious problems with Iraq's underground oil reservoirs, which American and Iraqi experts say could severely limit the amount of oil those fields produce. . . "

". . .Oil experts working for the United Nations found that some reservoirs in southern Iraq "may only have ultimate recoveries of between 15 percent and 25 percent of the total oil" in the field, as compared with an industry norm of 35 to 60 percent. . . "

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/30/international/middleeast/30OIL.html?pagewanted=all&position=

"Digital Net" does not refer to the Internet but to digital reporting stations on the HT cable systems wheeling power across the continent and on the monitoring of stability of the lines. If you look at the NY blackout and see what happened in Ohio it resulted from decrepit infrastructure and analogue monitoring gear which could not react quickly to load-imbalances and caused overload protection to trip."

Despite the aging grid, the power failure was linked to human error. Like I said, when Europe pays for its own defense and meets more of its responsibilities on the international "peace keeping" front then the US will have more funds to repair or replace our aging infrastructure. And despite our "decrepit" infrastructure, the US is still the most technological nation on the planet.

"Nuclear power in France had a problem because of low water levels in the rivers - it was still within safety parameters. Windmills are absurd, they pollute with their HF noise causing health problems; they require huge taxsubsidy, disfigure the landscape, and cannot generate base-load."

Sorry, while low river levels were a problem, that was not the issue. The warmth of the water was the issue. Thus, the warm water was not able to cool the towers. The water ejected was also much warmer than usual and killed fish and other river life. And we still don't know what to do with the waste. France's nuclear stations are old. When they need to be shut down because of age where will that nuclear garbage go? Perhaps they can burry it in the UK. Do you have the room?

Windmills are very, very viable. They are being implemented all over the world, especially in Europe whether you like it or not. It has been estimated that windmills in certain US "windy" states could produce most of the power needed for the US.

"Photovoltaic cells are expensive, and no substitute for base-load power. The only alternative to nuclear, is to reduce consumption which is probably the best solution all round anyway."

Gees, Trane, where have you been living, in a cave? Photovoltaics are being used everywhere in ever increasing volume. Even dark, drizzly Germany uses photovoltaics.

"Germany utilities support photovoltaics"
Many of the electric utilities in Germany have programmes of support for photovoltaics. This is certainly true in Bavaria where two utilities have launched new projects, which will not only increase awareness of solar energy and PV, but will also help to protect the special alpine environment. . ."
http://www.oja-services.nl/iea-pvps/pvpower/03_07.htm

Siemens, the German GIANT is BIG in the production of photovoltaics.

I live in a region of the US where many people have photovoltaics and sell electricity to the power companies. We are probably going to install them ourselves.

"Russia is part of Europe - Gorbachev talked of "our common European home", Putin believes this too, Peter The Great did too....most Russians want close links with Western Europe which is why so many send their children to English public schools and live in London."

Despite the pronouncements of Gorbachev or the beliefs of Putin this is wishful thinking. Russia may want to ally itself with the West and send their children to study in Europe, it is, however not now, nor has it EVER been "part of Europe"!!! Some of the former Soviet States can be considered "part of Europe" but not Russia. Look at a map!

"All very well, but I wish she would be a little more discriminating about the volume and pitch of the shriek-factor of some of her articles...while I can understand it on some issues, it is surely inappropriate and ultimately counterproductive (not to say exhausting!) to be quite as angry as nearly all her articles now appear to be. "

David, the "shriek factor"? LOL No one believed Cassandra either. Women shriek" men orate—right? Have you seen the Muslim (mostly male) hordes shrieking, Death to the West; Death to the Jews; Death to the USA"?

They never seem to get exhausted screaming "kill the infidel."

Lili

You would do well to read up on the discussions between the Greens and Clements in the current German Govt with regard to subsidies to windmills. I certainly know about them, they disfigure my landscape as I look across the valley.

I prefer to work on the assumptions made when tutored by MIT Professors on the subject, and the economics we have in Europe. Photovoltaics require huge government subsidy in Germany....it is part of the Green fetish.

THe human error in Ohio was unavoidable because the feedback systems were analogue and therefore slow, it is an auto-trip overload circuit as the power shunts back down the transmission line.

Why doesn't the US pull out of Iraq's oilfields and let the French and Russians open up the new fields they optioned under Saddam Hussein. Obviously their experts are more skilled in such an environment, and it would be a great idea for the Us to let them come and take up the contracts they had agreed. Getting oil out of the ground is vital for the future of Iraqi democracy, and if France and Russia can do it......they must be given the options.

Sorry, while low river levels were a problem, that was not the issue. The warmth of the water was the issue. Thus, the warm water was not able to cool the towers. "

No Lilith, low water levels affect the rate of dilution and the circulation.......the reactors have a good track record in use, and the Germans have a good track record in theory.

http://www.ipa.org.au/Media/amta181102.html

http://www.solarenergycentre.com/photovoltaics.asp
though the price per produced kWh is still too high for a larger dissemination

http://www.bpsolar.com/ContentDetails.cfm?page=149
Programme Details
Systems up to 5KWp qualify for a government grant of 50%. Applications started being accepted on 1st May 2002 and are still being received. Systems over 5KWp qualify for grants of between 40% and 65%, depending upon the status of the applicant. Applications were first accepted on 1st June 2002 and are now accepted on a rolling basis.

http://www.wouterlood.com/solar_htmls/page_06_uk.htm

One kWh of green electricity costs in most cities in Holland roughly 14 Eurocents (January 1, 2003). This is the base rate, subject to all kinds of inimitable local and regional surcharges, green 'eco' tax and value added tax. Let's assume a final 18 Eurocent, high tariff. Solar energy is not cheap. Although sunshine is free, the production of electricity from sunshine takes some effort.
A typical set of solar panels (four 150 Wp panels, productive surface approximately six square meters) produces some 480 kWh per annum. Such a set costs about Euro 3975

The Japanese PV market is very hot among three big companies, Sharp, Kyocera, and Sanyo. Kyocera has currently 60MW production capacity and Sanyo has 17MW production capacity.

The subsidy by Japanese government for roof top systems in 2000 was 14.5 billion yen ($130 million). The subsidy covered 1/3 of each PV system cost. The subsidy in 2001 is 23.5 billion yen ($210 million) and its coverage in each system is reduced

Much of the United States' PV manufacturing capacity serves subsidized markets (largely in Japan and Germany).19 The president of Siemens Solar recently dismissed two-thirds of the world PV market as unnatural, in that no need exists for which customers are willing to pay, and he warned against the volatility of subsidy-dependent markets

http://solstice.crest.org/repp_pubs/articles/pvaction/pvaction3.html

http://www.mnforsustain.org/windpower_testimony_erickson_part1.htm

Windpower is a wonderful sounding idea that is fanciful thinking. There are a number of drawbacks that persuade against its development: frequently it is windy when not needed, calm when electrical demands are greatest, and windpower can be only a local or regional and minor electrical contributor at best. Perhaps its greatest positive feature is that windturbines can be relatively quickly constructed. At worst, windpower is yet another energy sink requiring more energy to develop and maintain a site and to deliver its energy than the energy derived from it.

Windcommerce may exacerbate the very energy problems it claims to resolve because the manufacturing, development, and operating processes all require standard baseline energies. In many respects, windcommerce duplicates existing energies and reallocates funds from existing energy industries

Responding to windcommerce’s most frequently repeated claims, in the “Darmstadt Manifesto”, German scientists found that windpower produced minor quantities of electricity while saving an insignificant quantity of air pollution. German scientists studied its (Germany’s) more than 7,000 windturbines and concluded that, “less than 1% of the electricity needed is produced” and that “the contribution made by the use of wind energy to the avoidance of greenhouse gases is somewhere between one and two thousandths.” In other words, windpower is not an answer to renewable energies.2

The rigorous German study demonstrates that intelligent marketing has preceded science

In addition to the other considerations, is a never evaluated but potentially serious problem: the production of ozone destroying gasses. Windturbines are very large generators producing substantial amounts of emissions that destroy the protective ozone. As produced by every lightning discharge, electricity passing through air within the generator produces these environmentally dangerous gasses. There has not been a study quantifying the amount and effects of ozone destroying gases created by the “motors” in windturbines

In summary, with less than one-third the capital investment, modern clean coal generators will annually produce more electricity reliability over a much longer period of time and at considerably less expense and environmental impact. In consumer terms, windturbine development suggests unnecessarily higher energy cost and up to three times the capital outlays of typical baseline generating facilities borne by ratepayers.

". . . Why doesn't the US pull out of Iraq's oilfields and let the French and Russians open up the new fields they optioned under Saddam Hussein. . . "

Didn't you read the article, Trace? It is not a matter of "new" fields. It is a matter of mismanagement that is irreparable. I am all for letting the French, Germans and Russians do their part in Iraq. I have been arguing for the whole world to do their share, especially the Saudis and other rich Gulf states! The Bushies will have to come around eventually.

"You would do well to read up on the discussions between the Greens and Clements in the current German Govt with regard to subsidies to windmills. I certainly know about them, they disfigure my landscape as I look across the valley."

I have read up on it in German if you must know Mr. MIT. Stop being so arrogant. You are not the only one who went to university.

"No Lilith, low water levels affect the rate of dilution and the circulation.......the reactors have a good track record in use, and the Germans have a good track record in theory.

NO Trace!!! The water was warm, it could not cool the towers. It was warmer still when re-released into the rivers. Thus, it killed the aquatic life. Regardless of "good" track record, there have been accidents. The Germans don't want nuclear.

Nice job, Trace, but, I am not convinced. I also don't have the time or the energy to go into additional arguments with you regarding this subject. I do know that we have many solar communities in the US. Thousands of people in my region alone use solar power. I personally know people who use about $50-60 of fuel per year to heat their homes and they only have passive solar houses. Alternative energies are being developed more quickly than ever before even without major government support. Wind farms are also in use. Hydro cars, etc. are coming on the market and they are selling like hot cakes.

On the alternative energies issue. What will we do when the oil runs out? Coal is a fossil fuel, it will also run out. I for one, and there are billions of people who feel the same, am not willing to take the chance on nuclear power until we can deal with the waste. One accident is quite enough! In our region we have anti-nuclear protests all the time. People have enough brains to comprehend that nuclear power is not yet safe. Additionally, there is the re-processing issue and nuclear proliferation. I don't know about you, but I don't want countries like Iran to have nuclear ANYTHING!!!

"Nevertheless, after this initial euphoria, reservations about nuclear energy grew as greater scrutiny was given to issues of nuclear safety and weapons proliferation. In the United States and other countries many groups oppose nuclear power. In addition, high construction costs, strict building and operating regulations, and high costs for waste disposal make nuclear power plants much more expensive to build and operate than plants that burn fossil fuels. In some industrialized countries, the nuclear power industry has come under growing pressure to cut operating expenses and become more cost-competitive. Other countries have begun or planned to phase out nuclear power completely. . . "

Full article for your edification: http://www.nukeworker.com/study/nuclear_energy/ne4-fuel_n_waste.shtml

Please try it on your side of the pond and deal with the waste materials in Europe proper or the UK instead of shipping them to some third-world nation for storage. It would be a real shame not to be able to visit France anymore because of nuclear contamination.

I shall continued to support the development of alternative fuels on every level and front and oppose nuclear.

Lili

Which Third World Nation does Britain use to store nuclear waste ? Where does Israel store nuclear waste ?

Perhaps you should visit Sellafield which is a reprocessing plant.

Ich bin sehr fron, dass Due die Unterlagen bezueglich Clements auf Deutsch las, daher kann ich kuenftig die URLs auf Deutsch aufladen, um Dir besser mit Auskunft zu versorgen und die Problematik Deines Verstandes zu beheben.

I found many nice articles in here. Please post more before my next visit again.