The "Independent" needs to replace its eagle with a Swastika. And the way things are going, the crooked spider won't look out of place on the Union Jack.

The European gentile, to his eternal shame, quite obviously did not learn one damn thing from the Holocaust.

By the way, there is little question that you *are* the new Jabotinsky, Melanie. You need to move on to the next stage though. Having warned us in the most eloquent terms about this rising tide of Jew hatred, you now need to tell us what we should do next before we are completely overwhelmed by this new and virulent manifestation of the oldest hatred.

Pooh starts off on the usual anti-European rant. If we switched the words around (s)he would get very put out if the word "Jew" were transposed with that of "Gentile".

Martin Hohmann MdB put forward a thesis which was wrong, wrong not because he made the obviously true statement that the early Bolsheviks were predominantly Jewish at the higher reaches, and that the Cheka was an obnoxious and evil killing machine of a modern type of terror; but that he used the word "Taetervolk" as if the Bolshevik Terror was the work of The Jews 9rather than some Jews)and juxtaposed it with the canard that The Germans were responsible for the Holocaust and the unleasing of Total War rather than some Germans and Austrians caused it.

It was an Aunt Sally. The concept of "Taetervolk" is absurd, and is the mirror-image of Nazi race theory. So his point was factually and morally incorrect; there are no excuses for the behaviour of Nazis or Bolsheviks. Their crimes stand alone and are absolute.

The German KSK General was unwise: he did not express Anti-Semitic sentiments; he merely stated that a politician had at last stood up and said the Germans were not a "Taetervolk" subject to guilt as a people. It was right he was fired. A soldier should not be involved in politics, and should not embarrass his Defence Minister; he should recall that soldiers did meddle in politics in Weimar and helped bring Hitler to power.

The issue is a storm in a teacup. This line from Pooh attacking all Gentiles, or blanket denigration of Europeans is pure and simple racism. It is the modern-day version of Julius Streicher and is an affront to any civilised person, and I am sure it is embarrassing to Jews everywhere seeing the wholesale maligning of people based upon their geography and ethnic origin.

The Independent is a low-circulation newspaper owned by an Irish millionaire - Mr O'Reilly - and it is a paper which is in no way "independent"......it is peculiar but I note most of its contributors have skipped off to The Guardian.

"the crooked spider won't look out of place on the Union Jack."

You are becoming highly offensive Pooh. You insult us gratuitously and denigrate symbols of our heritage and nation. It is certainly a way to build resentment and anger towards you. A lttle bit of respect towards others might be appropriate, particularly for those who relatives died defending this flag from your 'crooked spider'

If anyone had any questions about Herr Williamson being a Jew hater, his last post should remove all doubt:

1) He joins Hitler and Goebbels in suggesting that the early Bolsheviks were predominantly Jewish; something that is a complete lie.

2) He does get one thing right though when he talks of the canard that "the Germans" were responsible for the Holocaust, for of course most of Europe was just as guilty. But the Holocaust was not just the the result of the crimes of a few individuals but was indeed supported and indeed implemented in many cases by the vast majority of Germans, Austrians, Poles, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, Dutch, Belgians, Norwegians etc. etc. It was the manifestation of nearly 2000 years of hatred towards the Jewish people developed and enhanced by the church and deeply embedded in European culture - a culture that quite obviously has not changed one jot. And whatever a few Jewish individuals may or may not have done in Russia, those acts were never ever derived from or supported by Jewish culture or its guardians. This of course is leaving aside the fact that Jews probably suffered more than any other ethnic group under Communism.

3) How typical that he would compare me with Julius Streicher. I, an individual who is simply pointing out that European gentile culture is every bit as rotten as it always was, and that the citizens of Europe are every bit as capable of carrying out another Holocaust, should be compared with a man who supported genocide, is quite laughable, but a typical ploy of the Jew hater who turns his guilt and hatred on the Jew.

No, Williamson, it is not I who should be compared to Streicher, but you. You who obviously do not give two hoots about anti-Semitism (oh, but chaps, it's just a storm in a teacup - yawn!). There is a direct spiritual link between the Jew haters of the Foreign Office who talked about the "whining Jews" in the 1930s, and those in government who implemented the 1939 White Paper and refused to bomb the Auschwitz railway tracks, and you.

You reinforce the wide-held view that not one thing has changed in Europe since those dark days when Europeans either actively supported or turned their backs as 1.5 million Jewish children were murdered in cold blood.

"You insult us gratuitously and denigrate symbols of our heritage and nation. It is certainly a way to build resentment and anger towards you. A lttle bit of respect towards others might be appropriate, particularly for those who relatives died defending this flag from your 'crooked spider'"

Yes, but you fought the war not because of but in spite of the Jews, a high percentage of whom actually fought for the Empire (60,000 all told) -but probably you don't think they are really British anyhow.

And I have little respect for the nation that did not lift a finger to help the victims of the Holocaust, except by chance.

But, how typical of you to suggest that it is I who am creating anti-Semitism. It's just fine by you for Britain to effectively collaborate in genocide; it's quite OK to produce a cartoon worthy of the worst propaganda of the Nazis; it's just fine that Britain is turning its back once again as Jews are being subjected to racist attack - ah yes, all that is just fine. But once the "little Jew" calls it as it is and tells you exactly what you are, then *he* is creating anti-Semitism?

Newsflash pal: this isn't 1941 and we ain't going quietly to the gas chambers.

Well here is another point of view:
Europe's demonizing Israel not spontaneous
By ABIGAIL RADOSZKOWICZ
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1069819713511&p=1006688055060
"The anti-Semitism sweeping much of Europe is a concentrated effort led by the political and intellectual elites of Europe, driven by a pact between the European Community and the Arab League, Islamic scholar Bat Ye'or told a gathering at the Hebrew University on Wednesday."
"The EAD structure is led by a joint presidency of the head of the EU and the Arab League, whose decisions are implemented by scholars and technocrats (there are no written record of its meetings, which take place behind closed doors)."
Read the whole article.

The following sort of news seems to have been ignored by the media with the exception of Foxnews, CNN and local Israeli media.
Heart surgery on Iraqi baby succesful
By ASSOCIATED PRESS
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1069819711323&p=1008596981749
"A week-old baby from Iraq succesfully underwent heart surgery at the Wolfson Medical Center in Holon and is now recouperating in the cardiac intensive care unit.
The girl checked into an Israeli hospital Tuesday for an emergency heart operation after European hospitals refused to accept her for treatment."

So being anti Sharon/Israel means ignoring anything good being done by the Israelis? And ignoring all the bad being done in other countries?

Pooh,
Reading the comments here and watching/reading UK media almost daily what is obvious is that had the cartoon been about Muslims there would have been a hue and cry from John 'O Groats to Land's End. For sure Tony would be outraged. I have not seen any comment attributed to him. Has Michael Howard said anything? Just left to the blogs, is it?
(Don't worry the UK is in good company as in the States it appears as if American Muslims are more American than American Jews when dealing with the CIA, FBI and the State Department.)
The big difference is that in the States there would be a lot of people screaming as they are not afraid to voice their outrage.

Melanie,

While that cartoon was certainly not tasteful, and was even anti-semitic, your interpretation of your world is not based in reality and is not healthy.
If a friend of mine expressed these kinds of thoughts I would politely suggest and hope that they sought help.

Oh well, if we're doing ad hominem, Beefheart, you're a patronising prat who wouldn't recognise reality if it bit him in the arse.

Posted by Barry at November 27, 2003 04:58 PM

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=467591

Iraqi girl undergoes major heart surgery in Israeli hospital
By Eric Silver in Jerusalem

Very nice story, Barry. But what do you think Das Independent would write if the Israeli surgeons who operated on that little girl were blown up in an "honor attack" by a Palestinian "freedom fighter"?

What are the mere words of the anti-semite when "God curses those who curse Israel"?Today it is Israel which has the shield and the Christian heathen and his atheist successor who have nothing.

He who laughs last laughs best.

A friend of mine went to the Independent for work experience.Most of the journalists had cannabis leaf stickers on their computer screens, and no one spoke to her all week. Peace and love, anyone?

Pooh

I find your remarks highly offensive. How can you critizize the British for not knowing genocide was being carried out on the Jews (after all most Germans did not know either). If Britain had not stood up to Hitler - how many more victims of the holocaust would there have been. I agree that anti-semitism is evil and I also believe that being anti-British is also. After all we have a right to our lives just as you have.

I am not British, but I find Pooh's comments offensive. Perhaps he would like to say what country did a *better* job of standing up against the Nazis.

Just a reminder --

During the Holocaust, the British Foreign Office sent a letter to the US Department of State, saying:

"Nothing should be done to help Jews escape from Europe, because nobody wants them".

The response of the State Department was,
"You should not put that in writing".
But Foreign Minister Anthony Eden had already said the same thing, and the remark was recorded for history.

Unsourced reference Clio........Si non e vero, e bene trovato !

Um... back to the cartoon. It's a parody of a picture by Goya. The original:

http://itech.pjc.cc.fl.us/cschuler/clt1500/review/goyasaturn.html

depicted Saturn (who was not, as far as I recall, Jewish) consuming his offspring.

The cartoon is a savage attack on Sharon personally, and the Israeli state by implication. It may well be unfair, but that hardly makes it anti-semitic (unless a caricature of Robert Mugabe in the same pose would be by definition, racist, because it implies that black Africans are savage cannibals).

I thought about it. Hmm. Yep, that is exacrtly what would be said if it was Mugabe scoffing infants. The words hoist and petard come to mind, Tim.

I find it amusing that those defending the cartoon claim it has nothing to do with "blood libel". Alas Saturn was eating his own child and the child in that cartoon is clearly supposed to be Palestinian.

Pooh's comments are a bit ott, it is not to say they should not be said. The EU is actively surpressing information about the scale of anti-semitic attacks in Europe, because they are perpetrated by Arabs and pro-Palestinian groups. The EU actively enables and supports organisations that are clearly anti-semitic.

While Britain and the US were not totally whiter than white over the plight of the jews during WWII they were certainly more concerned with them than those actively sending them to concentration camps (like the French). There are many, especially on the left in the UK who seem determined to ignore all signs of the rise of anti-semitism in Europe. (Those of course who are not anti-semites themselves.) They seem to wish to remain in a cloud where its correct to believe that the only people who commit anti-Jewish attacks are "far-right."

Melanie, excellent post as per your norm.

Melanie,

It cannot have escaped your notice that the quality and courtesy of some comments in this thread leaves much to be desired. Some intemperate and intolerant opinions are being aired. But if you take up such a strong position on an already incendiary issue one should not, perhaps, be surprised at the outcome. Might I suggest that, so as not to encourage the aforementioned excesses, you blog for a while on other, equally interesting and important subjects.

I agree. Mel's obsession with Anti-Semitism is becoming tiresome. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: the English aren't that concerned about Israel. Yes, it's sad that the Israelis and the Palestinians feel the need to slaughter eachother, but there's little that we can do about it. It's not our problem.

Hey! Yes, I agree that some of these fascinating topics have gone a little off the required tangent. But, hey, listen, what do you mean that would be censorship. There are a great deal of interesting things that one could learn here.

Hi Tony, pleased to see you're feeling better ! Getting stomach cramps as you meet Mick Howard are you ? Well we understand.

Israel depends on the US Treasury to prop up its economy, and the European Union to buy its exports. The Florida orange-growers do not invite Jaffa to export to them, but Outspan does face competition from Jaffa.

Without access to the EU on a tariff-free basis, and without access to EU R&D budgets, Israel would be economically disadvantaged. It seems to be very much a case of biting the hand that feeds, it is good that despite the provocation the Europeans experience from interest groups throughout the Middle East, it does not make too big a case for their generous subsidies to states and communities which are dependent upon the generous access to the major consumer market.

Melanie is quite right to keep the rising tide of anti-semitism in Western Europe as a high-profile issue on her website lest we become enured to it and its effects.

Some of the current criticisms (not all) of Israel do provide a trojan horse for some very unpleasant anti-semitism that is just under the surface.

I live in Brussels and there have been numerous attacks on synagogues throughout Belgium (partic in Brussels and Antwerp), and on obvious targets: Jewish schools, Jewish school children on the way to school, the Chief Rabbi of Brussels was himself attacked in the street a few months ago.

A Jewish friend of mine who owns/manages a restaurant in central Brussels recently asked a young couple who were sitting on her window sill outside her restauant to move. The young man burst into the restaurant and held her by her neck against the wall while shouting 'Dirty Jew' in her face.

There is a huge Muslim population in central Brussels (the most popular name given to new babies in the Brussels central district last year was, according to official statistics, Mohammed).

There is a real problem with a minority of 2nd generation immigrant young people (many of whom are unemployed and not well educated) from north Africa which is one of the main components in many of these attacks. Their parents - and official Muslim representative organisations - are often horrified at what is happening and many have publicly called for an end to such behaviour.

However, simultaneously, some of the mosques continue to pour out their anti-semitic hatred.

Sometimes it appears to be the attraction of hard-line Islam for some disaffected youth that appears to be part of the problem. Sometimes, it appears that these actions are more like the kind of 'paki/queer-bashing' activities that used to be quite prevalent in parts of the UK.

This is a significant problem in Belgium, France and the Netherlands.

In addition, not only Jews are vilified in the outpourings of some of the more extreme Benelux Imans: but also gays are called 'filthy pigs' quite frequently and - surprise, surprise, - there has been a substantial increase in the number of physical attacks on gays in cities such as Brussels, Antwerp, Amsterdam in the last couple of years by 2nd generation north African youths(this was partly what motivated Pim Fortijn to make his comments on Islam).

It is quite appalling and it is very difficult to know how to deal with it: the police can't/won't deal with it effectively; some left-wing and Muslim groups say it is exagerated and islamaphobic...at the same time, there is real tension in Antwerp where there large Jewish and Muslim communities live side by side - and where, the extreme-right Vlaams Blok (they took 37% in the last municipal elections) is ready to exploit the real worries and concerns of ordinary people who are despondent and despair of the inability of the politicians in established parties to deal effectively with issues - particularly law and order.

So, the situation in some parts of Europe is worse than in the UK. Melanie is right to highlight it and should continue to do so.

That's truly hilarious. A Daily Mail 'journalist' writing with feeling about prejudice. I read this and began to feel uneasy, so extreme was the opinion, then I realised it was an excuse for a right wing writer to lay into a liberal newspaper.

You do mankind no favours with this kind of journojism.

Stuart: So it’s okay to be against anti-Semitism, but wrong to criticise a newspaper that publishes an anti-Semitic cartoon, because it is "liberal".

You do mankind no favours with your stupidity. Be off with you.

This "award" says more about the British chattering classes then it can ever say about Ariel Sharon and Israel. Don't kid yourself, the British chattering classes had no use for the Jewish State when Ben-Gurion, Sharett, Eshkol, Meir, Peres, Rabin, Barak, Begin, Shamir, Netanyahu were Prime Minsters either. sharon is just a foil for them. The people who fawned over Mugabe, Baby Assad, etc. are the biggest haters of Israel.

Stuart you poltroon, how dare you cast aspersions at the beloved Daily Mail?

I'll have you know that it's soft, strong, and very very absorbant.

Ah, "stupidity". Anti-Semitism is an STD - Stupidly Transmitted Disease. Practice safe journalism at all times.

For it is through intelligent criticism - over and over and over again - along with huge doses of ridicule that this STD will be held in check. We'll never get rid of it because the stupid, like the poor, are always with us.

Keep it up Melanie!

"The people who fawned over Mugabe"

"The Israeli government has endorsed the sale of heavy riot control vehicles to Zimbabwe, the state-run radio station, Kol Yisrael reported yesterday. The report, on the station’s respected international affairs programme, quoted foreign ministry sources as saying that Shimon Peres, the foreign minister, had authorised the transaction between the Beit Alfa Trailer company and the Mugabe regime,"

http://www.sadocc.at/news2002/2002-163.shtml

". Beit Alpha’s web site, www.bat.co.il, shows the tanker as a vehicle that can have a machine gun mounted on top and features a ram

15 May 2002

ZIMBABWE: Israel to sell heavy riot control vehicles to Mugabe government

Memo to Red Baron:

Shimon Peres has not been Foreign Minister of Israel for over a year. Try again. You still did not deal with the crux of my post which is that the people who got their bowels in an uproar over Bush's visit to London kept their Leftist pie holes shut when Mugabe and Assad visited London.

"The report quoted Mr Peres as saying the deal would boost the economy in the north of Israel, where Beit Alfa, a kibbutz turned weapons producer, is located. In Harare, opposition elements are worried that the new weaponry, which has reportedly already arrived, will be used to intensify the regime’s current crackdown. "The equipment is heavy and can crush any demonstration," a Zimbabwe police official was quoted on Sunday as telling the Zimbabwe Gazette. The paper said police were being trained by an Israeli in how to use the equipment."

http://www.matimop.org.il/newrdinf/company/c506.htm

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines01/0823-02.htm

"JERUSALEM - A kibbutz that markets low-grade chemical weapons is poised to sell millions of dollars worth of "riot-control equipment" to Zimbabwe in a move its critics warn will translate into heightened repression by President Robert Mugabe's regime"

"Alon Liel, a former director-general of the foreign ministry and a former ambassador to Harare, wrote an opinion piece in Ha'aretz expressing revulsion that equipment produced on a kibbutz, Beit Alfa, would be used "to pursue the courageous proponents of democracy or the farmers trying to continue working their land, or against the thousand frightened Jewish citizens."

"

"The Financial Gazette reported, "Official documents show that acting Home Affairs permanent secretary Mike Matshiya last Thursday wrote to Ellie Antebi of Israel's arms manufacturer Beit Alfa Trailer Company, assuring the firm that Treasury had agreed to give high priority to mobilizing foreign currency for the purchase of the equipment.

"The equipment being bought is part of a wider government strategy to ensure that the ZRP is adequately equipped to deal with any possible riots ahead of a crucial election which President Robert Mugabe is seen losing," the paper said.

Matshiya said in his correspondence to Antebi that the $105 million represented a 12.5 percent down payment of the total contract price of about $840 million.

"The money would be used to buy at least 30 specially-made vehicles that are equipped with riot equipment similar to that widely used by Israeli security forces in quelling running battles with Palestinian protesters, as well as water cannons."

Mugabe's cabinet staff visited firms in Israel, the United States, France and Austria earlier this year to scout for equipment to strengthen the police force. The visit was part of a plan to beef up the arsenal of the police force with the election in mind. "

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=24496

Sharon's govt selling arms to Mugabe? This doesn't surprise me.

Deplorable as the massacre at Sabra and Chatilla was, it was above all a revenge atack by Lebanese Christians, for the many massacres of Christians and desecrations of churches in Lebanon, by the thugs of Arafat. And who gets the blame for it, the Jews, with PM Sharon labelled as a war criminal. It is on this Big Lie, that the present vilification of PM Sharon is based.

The distortions of facts is now endemic in many newspapers, and of course the BBC, all in the quest to find moral and ethical equivalence, even where none exists.

Good to hear the "true" version from you DP.......obviously Ariel Sharon is next to God above in his righteousness and utter innocence of anything of which he might ever be accused. Did ever such a holy man tread the earth, the benign, wise, and infallile leader of the state ?!!!!

Surely his poster must hang on every wall, and his words be on the togue of every child, and the sweet radiance of his cherubic face shine down on the poor and tired and dispossessed bringing love and charity into the world of men. ?

Melanie,

See what I mean? For pete's sake, change the record.

Romulus--

Are those the only options? No middle excluded by your presentation? Which are you, then?

I thought this "good vs evil", "Devil or angel" stuff was just too simplisme. Ah me, I can't seem to get it right.

Perhaps the answer lies in the last sentance where Ms Phillips wrote :

.... the only ‘solution’ to the Israeli–Palestinian conflict is nothing less than the complete destruction of the Jewish state'.

hmmmm ... maybe its not such a bad idea after all.

Wow, I'm bowled over by the humanistic, tolerant and peaceful expressions of the "progressives" who comment on this website.

Mel, you and what army? 400 nukes, be afraid, be very afraid!

This cartoon is horrific....indeed, it would have made Julius Striecher blush if that was at all possible.......this kind of vile rubbish belongs in Der Sturmer instead of an English newspaper??

We are living in evil times.......and it wasn't even barely 2 generations ago that Jews were being thrown into the gas chambers and we still havn't learned a damned thing......

And to make it worse, we have the rising Left Wing European and the Muslim hordes teaming up in there insane Jew hatred.....this is simply incredible??? I cannot believe what we are seeing before our eyes...

I say to all European Jewry......come to North America or Israel.........get out while you can....Canada (at least Western Canada) and America our safe havens for you and you will be welcomed .......

Devon

Calgary

For 'Mel' and others of his/her/its ilk:

Yes eradicating the State of Israel is one way of solving the conflict. But the other way is for the Israelis to undertake a massive and sustained campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Arabs.

Marcus -
Its called 'self-destruction'.
The clock is ticking ....

.... the other way is for the Israelis to undertake a massive and sustained campaign of ethnic cleansing against the Arabs.

Blimp ...you are a bigger fool than your name suggests.

The clock is ticking ...

K. Horton

You and the writers at Das Independent and al-Guardian can blow me. Self destruction is what the U.K. is doing with its insane immigration policy which will ensure shariah law will be the law from Lands End to John O' Groat by the middle of this century and that the national cathedral St. Paul's will one day be turned into a Mosque. Enjoy!

K. Horton

You and the writers at Das Independent and al-Guardian can blow me. Self destruction is what the U.K. is doing with its insane immigration policy which will ensure shariah law will be the law from Lands End to John O' Groat by the middle of this century and that the national cathedral St. Paul's will one day be turned into a Mosque. Enjoy!

"Mel, you and what army? 400 nukes, be afraid, be very afraid!

Posted by Marcus at November 29, 2003 02:20 AM "

Marcus you are such a wag ! No wonder Iraq and Iran feel justified in building WMD......obviously it was wrong of us to deny them the means to defend themselves against the prussia in their midst. You clearly seem to think so, you even threaten Europe which neither Saddam nor Iran have sought to do.

"Mel, you and what army? 400 nukes, be afraid, be very afraid!"

Is this the voice of Al-Qaeda ?

"I thought this "good vs evil", "Devil or angel" stuff was just too simplisme. Ah me, I can't seem to get it right."

Sorry to hear that. Talk with DP he knows the 'sole truth' and in his world any criticism of Sharon The Leader is tantamount to lese-majeste, so like our dear Leader Kim-Il Sung or the glorious Saddam or Joe Stalin.....it must be hard retaining the aura of uncritical adoration of Ariel Sharon and trying to retain the outward appearance od democracy.........

I can't tell which comments here are facetious and which are meant to be taken seriously? Could posters be clearer about this please?

I don't think you should take any of it seriously Newt? So, for the sake of fairness and balance I'd like to say that both Sharon and Arafat are evil murdering bastards and both will burn in Hell (with the sodomites, BBC management and trendy lefties).

Now I suggest you stop reading this blog and go out and do something useful with your life.

Move along please...nothing to see here.....

"national cathedral St. Paul's will one day be turned into a Mosque. Enjoy"

Well Israel led the way by building a mosque on the ruins of a temple in Jerusalem !

The Israelis are building mosques now?
Wow...funny old world, isn't it?

Romulus, what a funny little man you are!

John of Gaunt - the Israelis built a mosque ont he Temple Mount? I don't think so.

Off topic but Julie Birchell is leaving al Guardian. One of the reasons is that she recognizes anti Israelism as anti Semitism when she sees it.

"Which, for all its faults, is the only country in that barren region that you or I, or any feminist, atheist, homosexual or trade unionist, could bear to live under."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1094420,00.html

Samantha, Julie writes
Considering Muslim attitudes as laid out for them by their imams, the last sentence shoud read,
"Which, for all its faults, is the only country in that barren region that you or I, or any feminist, atheist, homosexual or trade unionist, would be allowed to live."

Julie Burchill is a terrible bore so I, for one, won't miss her. Thank God she hasn't made the transition to the broadcast media.

She's so working class (and, worse, proud of it)

So, M Wilkins, it's not just when you're at work that you find this site 'a scream'. It's Saturdays at midnight, too.

Unless you work odd hours, of course ;-)

I am glad you are making more constructive posts now, rather than just belittling those of us who think this an interesting site. We don't all agree with every word Melanie writes, but it's a good place to have a discussions much of the world's media neglect.

Back to Phillip's article.

"But a movement campaigning for global social justice makes a mockery of itself by singling out just the Jewish state for condemnation."

I don't think that the left single out Israel for criticism on an anti-semitic basis. However inarticulate and dogmatic the left can be, I think that the point is that Israel are a nation which pride themselves on upholding western liberal values (freedom, democracy, human rights etc etc) and yet fail to uphold the basic terms of the 4th Geneva convention in the territories they occupy. The point is that house destruction, the demolition of olive crops, the closure of roads to Palestinians only, the monopoly of water supplies etc. etc. in the territories is more about protecting settlers than protecting the territorial integrity of Israel propper. Settlers, of course, are illegal in that they controvene Geneva convention restrictions upon moving civilians into areas conquered in war. Israel does not forefill its agenda as enlightened liberal state in the heart of Arab darkness nor its role of defender in the face of intransigent Arab attack.
We know that Mubarak, Assad, the House of Saud etc etc are totalitarian, backward, uncivillised b**tards, yet this seems a banal point to make. (As an aside, two of the above could not stay in power without US backing. Furthermore, the UK makes itself look utterly ridiculous by calling the revolting and almost medieval Saudi Arabia "our friends" and by sacking the ambassador to Uzbeckistan for complaining of human rights in that abhorent excuse for a country). The left "singles out" those whom addopt standards which they entirely neglect to uphold. Bush can reiterate the words "freedom" and "democracy" for as long as he likes but he will never grasp what these words mean (do the Iraqi's have any say over the wholesale sell-off of their assets and the proposed "US modeled" constitution they are about to have to live under).
If the right want to invoke normative concepts then at least consult a dictionary before blasting out terms you blatently don't understand.

M. Wilkins I take you for a Robert Fisk or John Pilger fan.

Good Guardian link, Samantha. What are we both doing up so late?! Unless you're in the States, then it's not so late!

Although she tries to be quite light-hearted in places, Birchill is clearly exasperated. This contrasts with other (Jewish) journalists at the Guardian I know, who try and downplay those features she rightly indentifies.

Jonny I am in the States. Yes you are correct - there are quite a few British Kapo Jewish writers who think that bashing the Jewish State will buy them some time and safety from the jihad. It won't.

You don't leave an email or IM address to discuss further, sadly.

Don't wish to continue to bother this comments thread, though.

"John of Gaunt - the Israelis built a mosque ont he Temple Mount? I don't think so."

No it is older than the state of Israel, but the Al-Aqsa Mosque does tower over the abandoned ruins of the Temple. St Paul's Cathedral still looks very good, and we have no need to follow your position in accommodating mosques on Christian sites. Still, it is all a question of cHristian tourists and so few of those seem to go to the Holy Land nowadays.

'M. Wilkins I take you for a Robert Fisk or John Pilger fan.'
Posted by Samantha at November 30, 2003 02:09 AM

Actually I was more of a Hugo Young fan, but he is no longer with us. btw, Jonny, I do find it an interesting site, but I have to say I often violently disagree with Mel's opinions. But that's OK; I read the Telegraph op/ed pages every day for the same reasons. Mind you, the Guardian often causes me to choke on my cornflakes too, so you can't win them all.

Romulus I still do not understand what you are trying to say? THe Al Aqsa Mosque was built by the Islamic conquerors in the 8th century.

Point of order ; am I not correct in thinking that Jews and Palestinians are both semitic groups? Therefore the phrase anti-semitic is not valid in this context. As we say 'mind your language'

I wouldn't get too exercised about the independent - it always was meant to appeal to the technocratic plutocracy who value fascistic fanatical ideas whether its food, health - regligion or whatever - these are the realities that aldous huxley and george orwell wrote about - fortunately most of us dont take the independent too seriously - or this cartoon outfit either

You should appreciate their business is to shock and be provocative and inflammatory.

Dont raise the the bait - its just a cartoon for goddness sake.

jimmy

Please don't make such obvious and trite points.

Yes: Palestinians are one of the semitic peoples.

Antisemitism means, unless one is being deliberately obstructive and indlulging in superfluous pedantry, hatred and fear of Jews.

The term Judeophobia is rising in popularity; but please do not be obtuse. Antisemitism has a clear etymological history. We all understand it.

As for not rising to the bait. Please.

Good article Melanie. BTW—the one thing I would agree upon with that cartoon is that Sharon really is grotesque in stature. Ugh!

Each time I visit Europe I note more and more anti-Semitism. This time it is cloaked in anti-Israeli BS. Odd, that people never learn and never change.

"She's so working class (and, worse, proud of it)"

LOL! Mr. Wilkins, has it occurred to you that if it were not for the "working class" we could not be intellectuals?

Samantha the al Aqsa mosque is built on the ruins of the Jewish temple—several of them (temples) actually. That site was holy to Jews long before Islam came swinging its scimitar out of Arabia.

It's not "just a cartoon" it is inflammatory anti-Semitism, Jimmy! The pen is mightier than the sword.

Regardless of whether Arabs and Jews are all "Semites" the term anti-Semite was coined for and refers to Jews. Look it up in any good dictionary or encyclopedia.

I always wonder from whence anti-Semitism comes but out of jealousy? After all, the Jews are some of the most accomplished peoples on this earth. They have excelled in humanities, science, math, music and any number of commercial ventures through the ages. I guess if you can't do as well, then it's best to destroy the evidence of your failures by eradicating a people, reminders who ARE successful as human beings.

Islamic nations as a whole are failed societies. Islam is unique in that it has anti-Semitism built right into its religious and political tenets. What better way to justify anti-Semitism than via support from Allah?

"... They are those whom Allah has cast aside and on whom His wrath has fallen and of whom He has made some as apes and swine..." Surah (5:60); "...You have surely known the end of those from amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath, in consequence of which we condemned them: Be ye like apes, despised" Surah (2:65); and "when, instead of amending, they became more persistent in the pursuit of that which they were forbidden, we condemned them: Be ye as apes, despised"Surah (7:166).

The Christian, particularly the Catholic, Church has its own "cross to bear" with respect to anti-Semitism, however, as such it is not part of the Bible.

How much could be accomplished if Muslims put their energies and monies into making something of their failed societies instead of breeding, supporting and exporting Islamic terror?

Lili

jimmy'
Not quite correct. Many are the so called Arabs, excluding the Bedouin and Druse, who were imported into the region many years ago by the Turks when they transferred those forced converts from what is now Bosnia, Kosovo, Montenegro. You know, when the Ottomans captured the Balkans. Don't you know the history of the region? And then the British mandatory crowd brought scores of "Syrians" into the area to work in the port of Haifa and other areas.
Semites are the Sauds, Hashemites and some other tribes. The Egyptians are certainly not and a few weeks ago declared that they are not Arabs. Before that Ghadhafi rejected any relationship to the Arabs and now admits to being African only.
What would be very interesting is another genetic study by those Oxford scientists who showed the DNA linkage of the Jewish priestly group (Cohanim) and Members of the Lemba tribe in South Africa who claim to be descendants of the Israelites. They could then show what remains of the original peoples. For one, the Egyptians refused to permit attempts to test the remains of mummies (if it is still possible?) because of the fear of revealing something.

". . .For one, the Egyptians refused to permit attempts to test the remains of mummies (if it is still possible?) because of the fear of revealing something. . ."

Ah, yes, DNA testing another one of those Western "immoral, decadent and irrelevant" discoveries. In cases of rape Muslims also refuse to permit DNA testing. Because, after all, rape is ALWAYS the woman's fault unless there are 4 male witnesses of "good character." ;-) All a man has to do is say the child is not his and he will be believed, whereas the child is "proof" of a woman's "adultery." That is what happened to that woman in Nigeria recently. Safiya Hussaini was sentenced to be stoned to death until world pressure made the clerics rescind Islamic "justice." Who ever the "father" of the child was got off scott-free.

". . .Sheikh `Abdul-Majeed Subh, states: "I would like to stress that DNA as well as the hereditary print are no more than supporting evidences. In other words, they can not be considered as independent legal evidences on their own. Thus, if we are to consider DNA as an evidence that is supposed to establish paternity or prove a crime such as Zina, then it must be supported by clear legal proofs such as witnesses or confession."

Sheikh Muhammad Iqbal Nadvi, Imam of Calgary Mosque, Canada, and Former Professor at King Saud Univ., Saudi Arabia, adds: "The DNA testing can be used in Islamic Courts as a supporting evidence in the absence of four just witnesses. However, it cannot be the sole and only evidence to prove a huge crime like Zina which entails inflicting severe punishment on the criminal. The reason for not accepting DNA as a sole and complete evidence is that DNA testing cannot tell us whether the one who committed adultery did it willingly or unwillingly, be it the man or the woman."

Sheikh `Abdul-Khaleq Hasan Ash-Shareef, concludes: "First and foremost, I want to state that the crime of Zina is proved by one of two means: the evidence of four reliable witnesses or the confession of the adulterer or the fornicator. However, other things such as pregnancy and the like are merely signs or indications and are not qualified enough to serve as a legal proof. For instance, pregnancy does not necessarily denote fornication. Therefore, it should not be taken as evidence to prove the crime. The scholars state that the prescribed punishments (Hudud) are to be fended off for the least occurrence of suspicion. As far as DNA test is concerned, if it’s proved by reliable physicians and experts that it certainty serves as a valid legal proof, then it is the role of Muslim scholars to decide how to deal with it."

DNA: Can It Be a Sole Proof to Establish Paternity?" http://www.islamonline.net/fatwa/english/FatwaDisplay.asp?hFatwaID=80635

"It is clear from the above Fatwas that DNA is not a sufficient proof to establish paternity. It must be corroborated by other proofs. This is due to the continuous change in the principles that govern such things. It stands to reason that Shari`ah principles are based on certainty, and nothing should be left to risk or doubtfulness when it comes to establishing an important issue such as the one referred to in the question. "

The Arabs are getting lots of bad press these days for their extremism as well as their willful ignorance and backwardness. One wonders how many other peoples will disavow being Arabs? Of course, the Genome project "proves" that there is no such thing as "race." We are all brothers even with those apes that Islam denigrates in relation to Jews.

Which just goes to prove that you can choose your friends but not your relatives.

Lili

Romulus I still do not understand what you are trying to say? THe Al Aqsa Mosque was built by the Islamic conquerors in the 8th century.

Posted by Samantha at November 30, 2003 03:31 PM

Well Samantha, if you care to scroll up the page you can read the type of stuff 'Marcus' unloads on the site:

"You and the writers at Das Independent and al-Guardian can blow me. Self destruction is what the U.K. is doing with its insane immigration policy which will ensure shariah law will be the law from Lands End to John O' Groat by the middle of this century and that the national cathedral St. Paul's will one day be turned into a Mosque. Enjoy!

Posted by Marcus at November 29, 2003 04:32 AM

A good editorial about the Sturmer like cartoon.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1070165918846

There are no weird people - some just require more understanding.