Yes, World At One can be loopy. I heard it too. I suppos Britain would not be noticeable if it did not twin with the USA, I mean noone in the Middle East has ever heard of Britain otherwise !

The BBC gets a script and twists every fact, every occurrence, and every single interview towards their prepared line. They never mentioned that for Turks living in Germany or elsewhere in the EU, this is the one Consulate they must apply to to get visas to visit Britain.....the British Consulate in Germany does not issue visas to Turks....so it was really a plot by the terrorists (sorry BBC speak 'militants') to deny Turks access to Britain.

The fact is if the BBC did not broadcast there would be much less terrorism; and probably domestically mental health would be improved rather than the depressing output they produce. Nich Clarke and Eddie Mair, plus James 'Splutterer' Cox do get carried away with their propaganda and party-line.

Of course nobody ever points out that it is perfectly feasible that less British people would have died, at least in the short term, if we hadn't gone to war with Hitler.

... except perhaps Alan Clarke RIP - illustrating perhaps the most worrying characteristic of the 'anti-war/Bush' movement; The conspiracy driven left have always existed, always protested, and rarely made any impression. What is really worrying is the appearance, as pointed out in the leader of this week's Spectator, of the 'middle class conservatives' who in the long run will prove far more of a challenge and will carry far more electoral clout if someone wants to exploit it. Read Ken Clarke's speech in the War debate again.

Anyone who has read the history of the dhimmies living under Islam will recognize this behavior. According to dhimmitude expert Bat Ye'Or, the belief that you can forestall Islamic terror by not fighting back is one of the main characteristics of dhimmitude.

Welcome to second-class citizenship in your own nation, Brits.

Accurate, Timely, Eloquent.

Susan are you an American by any chance?
How splendid!

I also think this wouldnt have happened if we hadn't gone ahead with the illegal invasion of Iraq.

There have also been more terrorist attacks in the 2 years since 9/11 than in the 2 years prior to it. FACT. More innocent people have been killed in the USUK response to 9/11 than have ever been killed by Islamic terrorists. FACT. As predicted, all we have done is to exacerbate the risk of terrorist attacks, increased their motivation and inspired more recruits.

Turkey provided use of their airbases, and airspace to US bombers. They were prevented from sending troops initially because of their extremely poor record of oppression in the Kurdish areas of Northern Iraq, where they have killed over 30,000 people and demolished more than 2000 villages (with US/UK support, naturally - nothing to do with the oil pipeline across the region though.)

That was *truly* stupid, Elkajim. What's the matter, did you get tired of having your a** handed to you at LGF?

You're pathetic!

" where they have killed over 30,000 people and demolished more than 2000 villages (with US/UK support, naturally - nothing to do with the oil pipeline across the region though.)"

Whatever...You can't seem to get past that Blood for Oil rant.

Hey Elkajim

Your logic is a perfect illustration of what Melanie is writing about.

There were many more people killed in the war following Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland and the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor than the number lost in those provocations. Casualties are an inevitable consequence of battling totalitarian regimes that do not respect human life or dignity and wish to enslave their enemies.

Unless you wish to live as a d'himmi or (perhaps wish others to live as d'himmis), you must be prepared to use overwhelming force to destroy the enemy for he has demonstrated that he is willing to use force to destroy you.

"The BBC gets a script and twists every fact, every occurrence, and every single interview towards their prepared line. "

Not surprising, when the World Affairs editor, John Simpson has called Saddam "a Saint"

http://dailyablution.blogs.com/the_daily_ablution/2003/11/senior_bbc_repo.html

At heart, the Left are terribly confused individuals - well meaning, indeed, but naïve ad infinitum.

And to Elkajim:

"There have also been more terrorist attacks in the 2 years since 9/11 than in the 2 years prior to it. FACT. More innocent people have been killed in the USUK response to 9/11 than have ever been killed by Islamic terrorists. FACT. As predicted, all we have done is to exacerbate the risk of terrorist attacks, increased their motivation and inspired more recruits."

That may seem like self-justifying "FACT" to you, but to not fight against the perpetrators of New York, Washington, Bali, etc. would have been foolhardy. Your logic is weighed and found wanting when one looks at attacks on largely Muslim populations in Bali, Riyadh, Mecca and Egypt. Non of these countries are involved in or supportive of the War on Terror, and yet they have not been immune to attack. Perhaps this is because the terrorist, ultimately, do not discriminate in their "efforts". If you are a secular nation that fails to promote shari'a, you will be targeted. Now there's a "FACT".

It's also a very strange logic that says an organisation motivated to carry out the Nairobi, Dar-es-Salaam and New York attacks pre 'war on terror' would not have carried out the Turkey attacks or something similar had we not gone to war in Iraq. It may have provided a convenient excuse but a strategy which aims to remove all possible 'excuses' for terrorism is hardly a credible one.

As for your suspicious use of 'FACTS' - more Westerners died in terrorist attacks in 2 years prior to 10th of September than after and the security of our own people is justifiably our leaders' number one concern, as it should be in democratic societies. Of course more 'innocent people' have died since - there have been two wars!

During WW2, many Jews in Europe thought that if they did nothing, didn't react to nazi "provocations" and obeyed their orders, they'd survive. The nazis were clever. They never told the Jews they would be all exterminated ("well, folks, what about a bath now?). They used the "salami tactics", telling the Jews that if only they'd deliver, for instance, the leftist militants among them, or the elderly, or the unemployed, or, in France, Holland and elsewhere, the foreign or non-local Jews, then everything would be fine: the rest of them would be spared. Seems this is working again, this time with the Europeans in general. Give them Israel, and France will be safe, give them America and the UK will be OK, give them Cashemere and Germany will be fine, give'em back Afghanistan or Iraq and there will be no more troubles in the streets of Istanbul. Simple, isn't it? Thus, go ahead, make THEIR day.

Great piece of writing and very true. I am really enjoying reading your site. Thanks. :)

I found it very hard yesterday to not scream at the television screen whenever they interviewed some of the protesters from the march.

When asked about their reasons for marching, many protesters didn't even have a basic understanding of what they were marching for other than the fact they hated Bush 'coz he is evil, innit'.

Those that did have some sort of grasp of the situation spoke in the same 'Dhimmitudal' manner mentioned above. 'It's the West's fault because we have upset the nasty mullahs'.

Is it going to take a terrorist strike here or the creation of an Islamic state in Britain before the protesters and the media will wake up?

BTW ignore Elkajim - he posts on LGF and is too far down the road to dhimmitude to be saved.

This is the first time I have ever respected Jack Straw - his argument was flawless.

Did you hear when Humphreys interviewed the Turkish Consul - he implied that Turkey had been targetted because it is friends with the west. The Turckish Consul answered "Whats wrong with being a friend of the West?" This shut him up good and proper.

Well, one one level it is true that if Britain (and Italy) stuck its head in the sand like France and Germany, they would likely not have suffered the recent attacks. But that is just because the war on terrorism/Iraq has given terrorists a cause du jour.

If there were no war on terrorism or invasion of Iraq, would terrorism go away? Of course not. It would escalate in destruction as it did in the decade leading up to 9/11 when there was no war on terrorism, no Bush, and serious progress towards peace in the middle east. How the left can rationalize that, I don't know?

So, Britain could opt out and let the US go it alone. Or, we could all opt out and wait for disaster. However, Britain is standing bravely with the US and for that we are all grateful.
History will judge.

Back in the 70's and 80's France and Greece made unofficial deals with terrorists, turning a blind eye to anti Israel and anti American terror so long as no acts were committed on French or Greek soil. Guess what? The terrorists did not honor their share of the deal. Surprise, surprise!

What is even more repugnant than the predictable left, is the position of France and much of Europe.

They should be front and center for their role in creating this mess colonialism), their obvious benefit from someone else joining a fight that wasn't directly theirs (US in WWI and WWII), their obvious benefit from someone else's generous reconstruction (Marshall Plan), and the security umbrella largely funded by someone else that has allowed them to be free and prosperous (Cold War). This can be the greatest justification for British participation and blood.

If we had not committed ourselves to the emancipation of Iraq and Afghanistan, there would indeed have been fewer terrorist attacks in the last two years. HOWEVER, the more destructive result would have been to allow the world consciouness to sleep a slumber of false security for a while longer. This would have allowed the muslims to further solidify their hold on the demographics and politics of Western Europe, complete the R&D of WMD, and further hoodwink the distracted USA into more apologies for militant islam. The true benefit of the policies of the last two years has been to WAKE UP we infidels, the first step in a necessary defense.

All in all, I would say that it's the muslims that have committed the grave tactical errors, calling premature attention to their "jihad".

We can say these things amongst ourselves, but what happens when someone says them to actual muslim leaders?

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Britain-Muslims.html

Good link Tapir

well said i'm bookmarking this blog

"At heart, the Left are terribly confused individuals - well meaning, indeed, but naïve ad infinitum."

We have given too much credit to these people for their supposed "well-meaning"ness. These are people who do not shed a tear when Jewish children are blown apart by bombs. These are people who want to restrict GM foods, even if the price is more starvation in Africa--despite their total lack of scientific knowledge concerning the subject. These are people who want to abandon Iraqis to chaos and Baathist reprisals.

I'm not detecting many traces of well-meaningness in any of this.

Not to mention, the terrorist organization that carried out the attacks in Turkey is called the Islamic Great East Raiders Front, and is a well-known Al-Qaeda affiliate, that was trained in the former terrorist training camps of Afghanistan. It's an Iranian backed terror group, that claims the Republic of Turkey is illegal, and advocates Islamic rule in Turkey. Try to contain your surprise please. They fire-bombed a hotel in Turkey in February of 2000 that killed 19 people, and carried out scores of smaller attacks previoulsy, so these terrorists are nothing new to the Turks. They were founded back in the 70s.

And last time I checked, it's Turkey's job, to protect themselves from terrorists. Especially a home grown group like the Islamic Great East Raiders Front.

If the news today was not depressing enough, Robert Spencer's 'Islam unveiled' publication in France has had to be stopped, due to death threats on the publisher and author.

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=10931

Freedom of expression, the most important attribute of Western society, is now in grave threat.

So here we are, in the 21st century, to see this happening in the Land of the Enlightenment and the nation that gave us Voltaire.

What a heavy price we are paying in inviting Muslims into the West.

it's not fair to rubbish the whole of "the Left". Generations of my family have been trade unionist and socialists, and to these anti American demonstrators I want to say: Not in my name!

It's a Labour government that's taking positive action against the fascists, and there have always been liberal-left thinkers (Orwell) who've argued passionately against appeasement.

ANd on the other side, I hear president Bush saying trade and foreign policy can't just be a matter of calulating our self interest. It's got to be about values as well - because in the long run, values and self interest go together. Wonderful! Welcome aboard! This is not a message we've always heard from conservatives.

The moral shallowness of many on the left and right has been exposed by events of recent years. I think we all need a little more humility. Jesse.

Thanks for the post, Melanie! As always, you are right on.

I have said this over and over and over again since 9/11: Islam, via ObL, declared war on the US and the West and NOT vice versa! Islamic terrorist, with the sanction of radical Islam, ATTACKED the West more than once PRIOR to 9/11! Indeed, radical Islam makes no distinctions between Muslims or non-Muslims—they kill anyone who stands in their way with impunity—as they have in Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, India, Bali, Chechnya, Malaysia, etc.

The oil issue is a red herring! Those Muslim nations that happen to have oil, have nothing else on which to base their economies. They would STARVE if they could not sell their oil. Their economies are 80 to 90% based in oil and they have not bothered to develop anything else. They have not bothered to develop their human capital. Of the 22 Arab League nations, with a population of 280 million (equal to the US) they have a GDP less than that of Spain! When the oil runs out what will they do? Blame the rest of the world for that too?

Rather than having their religion "hijacked" radical Islamists are following the teachings of the Qu'ran to the letter. Anyone may look up the quotes of the terrorists, the Islamic clerics and the ordinary, terror supporting Muslims here in three (3) well recognized, authentic translations of the Qu'ran:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/quranindex.html

It would be well to remember that only 23% of Muslims are Arab speakers. Thus, Islam DEPENDS on translations of the Qu'ran. It cannot be said that these are "incorrect" translations or taken out of context. What's there is there! And what is there is a misanthropic, misogynistic, bigoted, racist ideology conceived by Mohammed to dominate the whole world. Islam is unique, in that it has world domination via mandated violence against "nonbelievers" written into its theology, cultural traditions and jurisprudence.

All too often when one hears these Western, PC dhimmis state the lie of, "Islam is Peace," they have never read the Qu'ran or the hadiths. These writings, just like "Mein Kampf," lay out EXACTLY what should be done with the "infidels" and the Jews if they don't submit to Islam. Islam means "submission" is does NOT mean "peace"! Those who don't submit to Islam must be killed according to the Qu'ran.

Islam has a 7th century, fascist agenda to rule the world. Mohammed was very, very clever in building his empire as a "whole" system of social, political and religious domination—one for all, and all for one in the "nation" of Islam. Even those who desire to leave Islam must be killed as apostates.

It would behoove those who claim "Islam is Peace" to READ what Islam is all about. It is not about peace it is about world domination! The Qu'ran states it is every Muslim's duty to make murderous jihad against "dar al haram" the "land of war" until all is "dar al Islam"— the land of Islam: Conversion, submission as a dhimmi or death: Sura 9:29

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.029

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
SHAKIR: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

They will kill us if we do nothing and they will kill us if we defend ourselves. Either way, there will be a lot of dead innocents before the world is free of the scourge of 7th century, fascist, radical Islam. So let us defend ourselves, before radical Islam takes us all down into one anarchic, 7th century Islamic night!

Lili

FACT: We may have to take a lot of casualties in order to win. We may not be winning yet. Do you want to quit?

suggestion: More and more fluent speakers of Arabic from countries traditionally hostile to us have suddenly become more interested in seeing terrorism disappear. This will likely result in sharply improving human intelligence.

"suggestion: More and more fluent speakers of Arabic from countries traditionally hostile to us have suddenly become more interested in seeing terrorism disappear. This will likely result in sharply improving human intelligence."

Posted by: Theodopoulos Pherecydes at November 22, 2003 02:39 AM

One of the difficulties of employing "native" Arab speakers is if they are also Muslims. It is permitted in Islam to lie to the infidel in the form of "taquieh" to protect Islam. It is also permitted, according to the Qu'ran, to break agreements with "infidels, Pagans, idolaters" in other words, non-believers which means the rest of humanity.

Breaking agreements with "Infidels" Idolaters

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.017

009.001
YUSUFALI: A (declaration) of immunity from Allah and His Messenger, to those of the Pagans with whom ye have contracted mutual alliances:-

PICKTHAL: Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty.

SHAKIR: (This is a declaration of) immunity by Allah and His Messenger towards those of the idolaters with whom you made an agreement.

So, the question remains, Mr Pherecydes, whom do we trust among these native Arab speakers if they are also Muslims and WHY should we trust them? What about other Muslims such as the Iranians? They are about to make an agreement with the world to permit nuclear inspections. In light of the above FACTS from the Qu'ran—why, should we trust them?

Lili

Thanks for the insight on BBC's The World at One. Squares with the attitude presented on BBC World Service as well. After l'affaire Gilligan, who can be surprised.

Pro-appeasement sentiments masquerading as objective reports aren't limited to your side of the ocean. My local paper, the Baltimore Sun, tries to offer a balanced mix of defeatism and dhimmitude. Today's above-the-fold Page 1 example: "Iraq war providing a boost to al-Qaida".

http://www.sunspot.net/news/nationworld/iraq/bal-te.qaida22nov22,0,415391.story?coll=bal-iraq-headlines

Keep writing, Melanie!

This post appeared in "Where's Raed" Blog:

http://www.dear_raed.blogspot.com/2003_11_01_dear_raed_archive.html

"tell your friends in London that G in Baghdad would have appreciated them much more if they had demonstrated against the atrocities of saddam.

And if you could ask them when will be the next demonstration to support the people of north Korea, the democratic republic of Congo and Iran?"

----------------

I have always said, where was everyone when Saddam was committing his atrocities? Where were the Arabs, the "brother" Muslims when a fellow "brother" Muslim was torturing and killing them? They only got religion now that the US deposed Saddam.

Nice of all the Euros to care about the Iraqis now. Oh, and why is it that no one anywhere in the world is demonstrating for the millions murdered in Africa?

I'll tell you why. Because as long as "they" are being murdered "over there" that was not our problem. Now, that the terrorists have begun to attack EVERYONE, now, it is an issue.

For the cafe sitters, the sybarites, in EU cafes who don't want their good life disturbed by life's ugly little realities, this is a wake-up call.

Lili

This post from Daimnation has a link to Polly (cracker?) Toynbee
and jibes so well with this post.
http://www.damianpenny.com/archives/001937.html

"Toynbee proves me right"

(Toynbee also writes, "There is no defence against terror." Well, that's all settled then.)

Say no more, say no more, wink, wink, nod nod!

The tradition of open debate has yet to enter the Muslim bloodstream.By the time it does there will be alas no Muslims left to receive it.

Ms. Paloma makes a good point: Arabs are untrustworthy. One of the first lessons I got in banking was, don't lend money to preachers or Arabs.

All I'm suggesting is that we are far more likely to find willing participants for our intelligence operations among Muslims now that they've broadened their strikes to include their co-religionists who aren't fanatics. I think this is already happening in Iraq...slowly.

"Toynbee also writes, "There is no defence against terror." Well, that's all settled then"

That's along the lines of "Death comes to us all " but my take on that is that we let the terrorists go first !

Polly seems to have succumbed to the inevitability of the Brownshirts thesis !

The Crusaders,the Nazis,the Fascists,the Communists and in the future the Islamists.Always dig their own graves.But unfortunately en route they take millions of innocents with them.Beyond that there is nothing more to be said.But just prepare.

". . .Ms. Paloma makes a good point: Arabs are untrustworthy. One of the first lessons I got in banking was, don't lend money to preachers or Arabs. . . "

That is not quite what I have stated, Mr. Pherecydes. I have posted supporting Surahs from the Qu'ran that state it is quite correct and even demanded for MUSLIMS (not Arabs) to break agreements with "infidels" and to lie to protect Islam via "taquieh". After all, only 23% of Muslims are Arabs. Therefore, one must be concerned about Muslims who take the Qu'ran literally. Because the Qu'ran instructs that all other peoples are lesser peoples than Muslims and that these must be fought against until they convert, submit or die.

We might find more "willing participants" now against the war on terror, but not necessarily among "true believer" Muslims and particularly not among Arab speakers. These need not be radicals, but simply literal believers in the Qu'ran. One must remember that Iraq was a secular society and the attacks, all around the world, including in Iraq, are made in the name of Islam. Jihadi fighters are coming from the Islamic world including the West, not just from Arabia.

009.073
YUSUFALI: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the Hypocrites, and be firm against them. Their abode is Hell,- an evil refuge indeed.

PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

SHAKIR: O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them; and their abode is hell, and evil is the destination.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.073

The world is afraid to admit that this is a 1,400 year issue of religion because Muslims demand, "Say Islam is a religion of peace or we shall kill you."

Of course, the more attacks there are by Islamists against innocents—Muslims included, the more likely it is that the PC speak will stop and the demand of the world will be for a Reformation in Islam wherein the violent, Satanic passages such as the above are formally repudiated by Muslims.

I do not believe that we simply have to "sit back and take it." The whole civilized world must encourage and and yes, even demand that Islamic societies reform! That they secularize and take the politics out of Islam. The Turkey model is good, as far as it goes. However, it does not go far enough as evidenced by the "home grown" fanatics who just perpetrated the terrible carnage in the name of Islam in that "moderate" Muslim land.

The peace demonstrators should be marching for a reformation in Islam and against Islamic terrorism.

Let us hope that there is still time!

Lili

I've been fantasing about a play set around 1941 where our current BBC editors and presenters have swapped roles with the war correspondents and presenters of that day. Churchill is ouraged by John Humphrys' constants claims that the war is going badly for Blighty, and Goebbels praises his English cousins for standing up to the Bolshvists's lies, and for accurately predicting the moral and military defeat which lies ahead for Britain, and the global ramifications for having illegally and unilaterally declared war on Germany, which was merely reclaiming its rightful boundaries and freeing its oppressed peoples. The Today Programme puts forward to a member of the Downing Street War Cabinet that Herr Goebbels "...has a point, hasn't he", and "that out of a formation of 24 Wellingtons, all but three escaped unscathed, while one third of all crews fail to get anywhere near their targets". "you're losing the war, aren't you? Isn't it time to give in? Its becoming a quagmire, isn't it?" Day by day the BBC announce every detail of every casualty on the British side, while praising the effectiveness and efficiency of the "German resistance". He also reminds his listeners of the huge crowds of protesters and objectors marching down Whitehall against the illegal war on a sovereign Germany, and who condemn Churchill as a mass murderer, who "according to an, ehm, anonymous source, uh, high ranking in the, uhm, British Intelligence service, says Churchill is, Churchill is" ... "seeking to bring the American capitalists into the war for financial profit and ultimately the occupation of Germany and its natural resources". "And ", he continues, "isn't all this talk of "concentration camps", just a distraction in the end, a smokescreen?"

Lili,

"Those Muslim nations that happen to have oil, have nothing else on which to base their economies. They would STARVE if they could not sell their oil. Their economies are 80 to 90% based in oil and they have not bothered to develop anything else."

Really? Remember the distinction I made earlier between objective analysis and aspirational or prescriptive statements? The above quote is a prime example of just that. We need to appreciate that the distortions and dislocations associated with natural resource discoveries can be induced by recognised economic mechansims that have nothing to do with religion or ethnicity.

From the US State department, in Malaysia: "According to government census figures, in 2000 approximately 60.4 percent of the population were Muslim; 19.2 percent practiced Buddhism; 9.1 percent Christianity; 6.3 percent Hinduism; and 2.6 percent Confucianism, Taoism, and other traditional Chinese religions. The remaining percentages were accounted for by other faiths, including animism, Sikhism and the Baha'i Faith."
- from: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/irf/2002/13899.htm

"At independence, Malaysia inherited an economy dominated by two commodities--rubber and tin. In the 40 years thereafter, Malaysia's economic record had been one of Asia's best. From the early 1980s through the mid-1990s, the economy experienced a period of broad diversification and sustained rapid growth averaging almost 8% annually. New foreign and domestic investment played a significant role in the transformation of Malaysia's economy. Manufacturing grew from 13.9% of GDP in 1970 to 33% in 2000, while agriculture and mining, which together had accounted for 42.7% of GDP in 1970, dropped to 8.4% and 6.9%, respectively, in 1999. Malaysia is one of the world's largest exporters of semiconductor devices--electrical goods, and appliances, and the government has ambitious plans to make Malaysia a leading producer, and developer, of high-tech products, including software." - from: http://www.geographyiq.com/countries/my/Malaysia_economy_summary.htm

"Malaysia's economy expanded more than 5 per cent in the third quarter [2003] on a yearly basis, the central bank said, adding that growth for the full year would top 4.5 per cent."
- from: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/20/1069027220054.html

Seems to me the challenging question is why some country economies with majority Muslim populations perform well, without undue dependence on oil production, and others don't. Perhaps a little more homework is required before Muslim countries are indiscrimately damned, which rather tends to look a tad prejudiced and tendentious.

Other social and economic factors besides religion are significant factors in economic development and growth. Discovery of abundant oil or natural gas resources or, indeed, other globally scarce natural resources in a national economy tends to distort the rest of the economy. If the economy's foreign exchange rate is flexible that tends to appreciate thereby rendering parts of the previously viable trading sector uncompetitive. Even if the exchange rate is pegged by some institutional arrangement, high wages paid in the buoyant resource related sector tend to bid up prices and wages elsewhere through market forces, again inducing competitiveness problems in non-resource sectors open to international competition.

Problems fitting this syndrome have happened in Europe, notably to the Netherlands, because of the fashion there for tulips in the 17th century and then again following the discovery of natural gas reserves in 1963, and to Britain as North Sea oil came on stream in the late 1970s, as well as to Norway as the result of its North Sea oil and gas finds. The Muslim religion was not a factor in what followed or in the success or otherwise of whatever policy prescriptions were applied to address the problems created by the resource discoveries. The following web reports offer insights:

"A major international financial institution, the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development, is concerned that some Central Asian economies are relying too much on oil and natural gas exports. In an internal report, the EBRD compares their reliance on energy exports to the Holland's financial ruin of 1637, when its economy was overly dependent on the price of tulips. RFE/RL correspondent Ron Synovitz examines the relevancy of the 17th-century "Dutch disease" to Central Asia today." - from: http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2001/05/10052001114250.asp

"Named after a trend first noticed in the Netherlands following the discovery of North Sea natural gas, Dutch disease refers to the widespread economic decline that can ensue after rapid development because of an exported natural resource. 'The existence of oil revenues tends to make other economic activities, agricultural or industrial, uncompetitive and makes them disappear,' said Philippe Copinschi, who is writing a thesis on African oil.

"'There's no motivation to develop diversified economic activities because oil brings in immense revenues in an almost automatic way," he said in an interview with French newspaper Questions Internationales.'" - from: http://quickstart.clari.net/qs_se/webnews/wed/an/Qafrica-oil.RtcL_DlR.html

"Growth studies show, counter to intuition, that the discovery of a natural resorce may be a curse rather than a blessing since resoured rich countries tend to grow slower than others. Moreover, resource abundance may involve a displacement of a growth-essential manufacturing sector, leading to Dutch Disease. . ." - from: http://emlab.berkeley.edu/users/webfac/cbrown/e251_f03/larsen.pdf

Addressing the Natural Resource Curse: http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/wp/2003/wp03139.pdf

On Britain and Norway: http://www.wiwiss.fu-berlin.de/w3/w3collie/B&W3/02Aug/Webbox0702r.pdf

LiLi: "Those Muslim nations that happen to have oil, have nothing else on which to base their economies. They would STARVE if they could not sell their oil. Their economies are 80 to 90% based in oil and they have not bothered to develop anything else."

Bob: ". . .Seems to me the challenging question is why some country economies with majority Muslim populations perform well, without undue dependence on oil production, and others don't. Perhaps a little more homework is required before Muslim countries are indiscrimately damned, which rather tends to look a tad prejudiced and tendentious. . . "

First, I shall "damn" ANY country or culture that commits terrorism in the name of an ideology and religion. Islamic terrorism is committed in the name of Islam with often no rhyme or reason to it other than to do what the Qu'ran commands—make jihad against innocent "non-believers." Second, doing "well" is in the eye of the beholder. Regardless, women, one half of the Muslim population, are at the back of the bus! Even in the West Muslim women do not have equal rights with Muslim men. No country with a majority Islamic population can be said to be doing "well" economically, certainly not by developed world standards—not even Turkey.

Out of 1.5 BILLION Muslims they have a handful of Nobel Prizes and only 3 of those are for hard science. I don't believe that Arafat's "peace" prize counts.

Please re-read the above quote above carefully! Bob, we are talking about the ME oil states here and those Muslim nations who base their economies on oil, not on Malaysia. As far as I know Malaysia is not an oil state. It only has marginal off-shore oil fields. The Malaysians were rather helpful though in smuggling Iraqi oil. They do have a palm oil industry though. :-)

And what the heck does Tulip Mania (which was in many Euro countries) in Norway have to do with the development of ME oil states and Islamic sharia law? Norway, BTW, has a very high-tech economy these days and is not overly dependent on its oil industry. Besides, these states have been on the same planet as the rest of us. Why is it that they remain stuck in the middle ages, if that? Islam that is why!

You are very fond of quoting out of context, Bob. Yet, some of your links clearly support my argument. I suggest that you look at the UN Report for Arab Development and study those shocking stats for a while and then get back to us.

http://www.undp.org/rbas/ahdr/

BTW—what EXACTLY is your point? Is it that Islam is not the cause of the violence? If so then perhaps this quote below will change your mind. There are thousands of such quotes from Islamic militants, clerics and school masters. Islamic militants have ONE SINGLE thing in common—Islam! They KILL for Islam! I could post prayers from mosques all over the Islamic world that invoke violence against the "infidel" and the Jews—by the hundreds if not thousands. How about if I post Arab school book texts with hate against the "infidels" and the Jews? Or, better yet, one could post scores of quotes from the terror instruction manual, the Qu'ran. Today the Turkish government DEMANDED that mosques give sermons AGAINST Islamic terrorism. The Brits were pretty dismayed that they have not gotten ONE condolence wish from ANY Islamic cleric or official.

http://www.msnbc.com/news/996640.asp?cp1=1

“Many youths here are anxious to join the jihad when I tell them stories of our heroic Islamic resistance against Indian aggression.”. . . (Note: "Indian aggression.")

. . .Sitting below a poster of —himself holding the Qur’an in his right hand and a Kalashnikov in his left, Samiul Haq says he fully supports what he calls “the real freedom fights” in Iraq, Afghanistan and Kashmir.

(Gawd, I LOVE it! Where were these "brother Muslims" when Saddam was murdering and maiming their Islamic "brothers"? )

". . . He’s the principal of the Darul Uloom Haqqania mad-rassa, 20 miles east of Pesha-war, one of the biggest religious schools in Pakistan. He and his 3,000 students proudly call it “the University of Jihad.” Its alumni include at least eight senior Taliban leaders, and Mullah Omar sent a personal message to every graduating class until his regime’s collapse two years ago. Without a trace of irony, Haq denies that his school teaches extremism. “I challenge Musharraf to find any extremism here,” he says. “This madrassa is not a military base. It has no guns or tanks.” He adds: “We teach jihad because the holy Qur’an teaches jihad, which is the defense of Islam.” . . ."

These maddrassas are the only "education" these children will ever get. Note that these schools teach no science, no mathematics no technology—only Islamic jihad against the infidel "aggressors."

". . .“If we forget the jihad, God will forget us,” Shah said. “But if we return to jihad, God will lift us up.” . . ."

A Kalashnikov in one hand and the Qu'ran in the other. That about says it all. While our soldiers are not even permitted care packages from the US that contain so much as a Bible because it might "offend" the "secular" Iraqis. It seems to me that Allah has consistently "forgotten" Muslims. Allah, like God, only helps those who help themselves. These people fight "holy jihad" because they have NOTHING else to do, because they have not developed their economies and the population is expendable.

My point is I don't give a fig if they are developed or live in the 7th century. I want to cut off Islamic states that breed, sponsor, support and export Islamic terrorism! Let them all murder one another and wallow in their ignorance.

Aside from trading for oil, why do we need the Islamic world? That is MY question.

Lili

To Ms Paloma, thank you for an excellent piece of analysis.

A quick comment on Malaysia, it has been recognised for some time that the main wealth producing part of Malaysia is the large Chinese (non muslim) minority. Malaysia introduced, in the 70s, apartheid style laws, reducing the status of all non muslims. Muslims are given preference over non muslims in all fields, particurly in education. One quick example is that every company has to part owned by muslims.

The future of Malaysia has to be seen as uncertain, as it's wealth producing portion of society is clearly disadvantaged. The large enthic Chinese portion of teh poulation may not wish to live as second class citizens for ever.

Western leaders find it difficult to get 'moderate' Muslims in the West to condemn violence and terrorism. When Muslims are pressed hard they do condemn terrorism but also join it with, BUT Israel etc.

What our leaders have to do is to is press moderate muslims to condemn THE JIHAD. This will sort out who are with us from those who are here in the West simply biding time till they are strong enough to wage proper jihad in the West.

Malaysia has condemned itself to going backwards.It has forfeited its right to a future.Some countries,malevolent and anachronistic,are,by default,to go the way of Ancient Greece and Rome.They are,even including Turkey,mostly Muslim and their destiny is to disappear off the map.Just as happened in the Ancient World they will die by what they live by.Fear.

.... and how many theological archeologists are studying the authenticity of the Koran - which has no preserved texts for about two and a half centuries after Mohammed lived?

Look what happened to Salman Rushdie.

I am glad to see that many of you, Steve, Peter, DP, Bob, Forsooth, Theo et al. across the pond are still engaged here. :-)

Thank you to Melanie for providing this forum. I have often thought of getting my own blog, but have not yet made the time. Jonathan, loved the play! I have been toying with one whose characters are all the extremists from one end of the spectrum to the other Islamists, radical religious right to anarchists. One might not walk out of the theater humming a tune. :-}

I hope that more and more people will become horrified enough at Islamic terrorism to keep the pressure on our governments and Muslim leaders. Write letters. Discuss on the internet. Become an activist against Islamic terror.

---

I constantly marvel at the convoluted logic used by Muslims and the "Bush is Hitler" crowd. . . Please don't misunderstand. I and many Americans felt the war was not the way to go, particularly without allies. But—"Bush is Hitler"!?

Muslims the world over scream and hysterically protest "American hegemony" and "US Imperialism." They blame everything negative that has happened to Muslims since being driven out of Spain in 1492 on the "crusader West." (Peace-nicks and anarchists do the same thing—but that is another subject.)

Muslims the world over dance joyously in the streets, passing out sweets, when Islamic fanatics attack and murder innocent people. Yet, they aspire to again have an Islamic hegemony as they had once before in history— reaching all the way from Mecca to Vienna. People seem to forget that Islam conquered half the know world with the sword! People forget that the first Crusade was called because of 400 years of Islamic aggression against Christians and Jews. Islam did not go through the world preaching "peace and love". There is a scimitar, the sword of Islam, on the modern Saudi flag.

The stated radical Islamic goal today is to take over the whole world and establish a 7th century Islamic caliphate as commanded by the Qu'ran. Other than via a cultural "hegemony" and the export of "stuff," (admittedly, some of it really lousy stuff) as far as I know the US has not violently conquered half the known world as Islam did in previous ages and is clearly still attempting to do in this age.

The fascinating thing is that while Muslims reject modernity and anything Western yet—they use sophisticated modern technology and Western (often Jewish) developed products from computers to explosives to automobiles to medical equipment, etc. to commit terror against innocents. One of the suspected perpetrators in the recent Turkey bombing was the owner of an internet cafe!

Muslims pray to Allah five times a day in the Islamic world repeating these words from the Qu'ran, " Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection." Surah: 009.029 http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/quran/009.qmt.html#009.031

Islamic clerics invoke Allah to, "Shake the ground under their feet and destroy the "non-believers and the Jews," every Friday at prayers. (I must say, despite making me angry, this silly-sounding anciently worded prayer always makes me chuckle.)

So, clearly Allah commands Muslims in the Qu'ran to "subdue" the non-believers and make them pay a poll tax jizya to ruling "superior" Muslims. On that note, one of the big reasons Islamic states are such failures is this taxing issue. Muslims do not pay taxes in an Islamic state. Thus, there is a need for a constant supply of tax paying dhimmis (non-Msulims) to sustain the state. This is one of the reasons that Islam began to decline about 400 years after its inception according to Orientalist scholar Bernard Lewis. Islam had to expand to keep their coffers filled because it is against "Allah's law" for Muslims to pay taxes. Thus, as people "reverted" to Islam or were killed as idolaters, there were no more tax payers. Onward Muslim soldiers!

No matter how much they pray, it appears that Allah has consistently "forgotten" and forsaken Muslims by allowing the rest of the world to forge ahead. Nothing has happened in the Islamic world to move humanity forward for at least five hundred years. Allah, like God, only helps those who help themselves. Muslims leaders such as Pervez Musharraf" have recognized the truth about Muslims: "Today we are the poorest, the most illiterate, the most backward, the most unhealthy, the most un-enlightened, the most deprived, and the weakest of all the human race,"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1824455.stm

For a bizarre reasoning rebuttal from an Islamist look here. He is worth the read only because he is so typical as to be eyeopeningly underscoring. He berates Pakistan for not "sharing" knowledge among Muslims such as nuclear: http://www.khilafah.com/home/category.php?DocumentID=3431&TagID=1

". . . The West is productive (albeit only in the material sense) because it makes progress in a specific way i.e. according to the man made capitalistic thoughts. In contrast the Islamic Aqeedah are the true thoughts as they originate from the Creator and therefore they are the enlightened thoughts from which if used frequently and successfully, lead to the correct progress, i.e. a sound solution which is compatible with man’s innate nature . . . "

We hear from every corner of Islamia that there is not yet such a thing as a "true Muslim state." Everyone of these so-called leaders constantly waxes that "when finally the perfect Islamic state comes forth—then, oh then—is when there will be Paradise on earth just like in the 7th century."

Islamists fight "holy jihad" because they have NOTHING else to do, because they have not developed their economies nor their human capital, therefore the population is expendable. Indolent young men by the millions, with religious studies degrees, dream of jihad because they have no jobs and are unemployable. The Qu'ran certainly focuses on this expendability. There is one phrase that states "killing one human being is like killing all of humanity" and hundreds of phrases for murderous jihad, war against the infidel and "noble" martyrdom.

Muslims don't want to be "corrupted" by the "decadent" West—yet they buy our stuff and they come to the West by the hundreds of thousands. Muslims are free to develop their own products and economies and they are free not to trade with the "infidels." Here is a great substitute product to a "decadent" Western one "Mecca Cola" with the slogan: "No more drinking stupid, drink with commitment": http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2640259.stm
A more appropriate, universal Ummah slogan might be: "Buy Muslim! Support murderous jihad against innocents."

It has recently been proven that sugary soft-drinks are major contributors to obesity and diabetes. Muslims in the Arab world in particular suffer greatly from these afflictions of wealth and modernity. I am sure that any day now we shall hear that colas are a "Zionist plot" to cause disease among the Muslim/Arab population. Another issue in the Arab/Muslim world is inter marriage. Too many cousins marrying cousins have wrecked havoc with the diversity of the gene pool. Genetic diseases in the Arab states are rampant.

Instead of fighting a REAL Holy Jihad against ignorance and backwardness in the Islamic world, Muslims fight a murderous jihad by perpetrating terror against innocents out of a jealous rage against all who are doing better than they are and those whom Muslims perceive as having stolen their "natural right" to Islamic superiority.

It has been suggested that the our leaders must press the Islamic world to repudiate the violent passages in the Qu'ran and reject jihad. All in good time. The unfortunate "positive" thing that is coming out of these terror atrocities is that the world is waking up to the realities of Islam—not just radical Islam, but Islam as a whole system for living and controlling people's minds. People all over the world are reading and learning that Islam is NOT peace, but a form of fascism. Let there be enough terror attacks against innocents and there will be a world-wide movement against Islam such as to make the Crusades look like a golf game.

Imagine if the BILLIONS used for Islamic terror were used to develop, educate and enlighten the Islamic world— Imagine the progress! Then, humanity might be able to turn its attention to important things such as the state of the environment and the survival of the planet.

Lili

Great post Lilith. However with genetic degeneracy rampant in the Islamic world, I dont quite see how they could contribute anything worthwhile for a long time, even if they stopped The JIHAD right now.

"Great post Lilith. However with genetic degeneracy rampant in the Islamic world, I dont quite see how they could contribute anything worthwhile for a long time, even if they stopped The JIHAD right now."

Yes, well, DP that is one of the problems. Here is the deficiency reality of such in-breeding:

Reactions in the Arab Press to President Bush's Address on Democracy in the Middle East

". . ."It appears that the American president, Little Bush, relies on a group of hashish-smoking advisors. . .

. . . Bush has forgotten that the Arab and Islamic peoples prefer to be ruled by a dictator such as Saddam Hussein than by a democratic president of the likes of Bush, . .

Our people, whose civilization is 7,000 years old, does not expect, and does not need to expect, others to give it lessons in democracy or in anything else. Therefore, attempts to impose democracy from without will fail.". . .

. . . "Last Thursday, 'Brother' W. Bush proved that although he is idiotic, stupid, fascist, and criminal; he is also base. . ."

Read the whole thing here. It will put a smile on your face:

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP61503

And Arabs get upset when we call a spade a spade and say that all Islamic terrorists are Muslims. {sigh} If anyone in the West wrote such things about a leader of the Muslim world there would be fatwas by the hundreds.

We give 2 BILLION dollars to Egypt every year. Cut them off!!!

There is slim chance that democracy in these places will ever work because living under the repression of Islam is in the genes. Their state controlled media is working overtime. Their bowels have indeed turned to water. ;-)

=========

Next Item

Heard on al Qaeda websites and wire chatter:

Al Qaeda: Countdown for “biggest operation yet inside America”

“The big blow will fall very shortly. It will consist of a series of surprise attacks that will cut America off from communication with its armies in Muslim countries. . . Muslims living in the United States are urged to “take advantage of the short time left” to escape the country and harm’s way.”

Perhaps this yet another "conspiracy" from the "Zionist entity" to rid America of its Muslims by scaring them into leaving for a brighter future in an Islamic land? Let me see 2 to 3 million people purchasing plane tickets. Now that might just raise some Homeland Security red flags. Of course, they will petition for the right of return. . .

[Zzzzzzzzzz] Perhaps they have poisoned millions of Holiday Turkeys? (Gasp!) Ready for the "Mother of all Turkeys"? Get out the Duct Tape.

Happy Turkey Day! :-)

Here is what Victor Davis Hanson has to say about all that. Please read the whole thing. It is glorious! http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson032502.asp

". . . After 30 years of listening to nauseating chanting from Teheran to Islamabad to Nablus, hearing the childish rants about "The Mother of All Battles" and "The Great Satan," and witnessing presidents from Carter to Bush burned in effigy, the ritual torching of the American flag, the misspelled banners of hatred, the thousands of paint-by-the-numbers posters of psychopaths from Khomeini to bin Laden, televised threats that sound as hideous as they are empty, Nazi-inspired anti-Semitism, embassy takeovers, oil-boycotts, hijacked planes, cars, and ships, lectures from unelected obese sheiks with long names and gold chains, peacekeepers incinerated in their sleep, murders at the Olympics, bodies dumped on the tarmac of airports, shredded diplomats, madmen in sunglasses in Iraq, Syria, and Libya, demented mullahs and whip-bearing imams in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and Iran, continual televised murders of Americans abroad, our towers toppled, our citizens butchered, our planes blown up, hooded Klansmen in Hamas and Hezbollah, killers of al-this and Islamic-that, suicide bombers, shrill turbaned nuts spouting hatred on C-SPAN broadcasts, one day the salvation of Kuwait, the next sanctions against the swallower of Kuwait, the third day fury against the sanctions against the swallower of Kuwait, the fourth day some grievance from 1953, the fifth another from A.D. 752; and all the time sanctimonious fingerpointing from Middle Eastern academics and journalists who are as bold abroad in insulting us as they are timid and obsequious under dictators at home in keeping silent, I've about had it.

No mas! The problem is you, You, YOU— not us ... " (emphasis mine)

Leave them to Allah! And pass the wine and cranberry sauce, please. . . If we are all going to die, then let's die decadently happy. ;-)

Lili

What does "wine and cranberry sauce" taste like ? Couldn't you get a Zinfandel or Shiraz then you would not need to blend wine and cranberries ? Or do you buy Ocean Spray Cranberry Wine ?

Oh, oh— caught me, Peter. LOL

In "proper" English it would have been, "the" cranberry sauce. The wine and the cranberry sauce are two separate entities. Although one could add wine to cranberry sauce provided the alcohol was cooked away.

No, it is not "Ocean Spray" it is home-made cranberry chutney with oranges, apricots and walnuts and fresh cranberries. The wine is a Merlot or a red Zinfandel although a Shiraz is good too. We'll probably go for an Aussie wine.

Are you having Ocean Spray you poor dear?

Lili

I used to like Robert Mondavi Zinfandel and Fume Blanc until the horrendous price caught up with me.

Ocean Spray .....yes Lilth it is all we get in the food parcels at Wal-Mart-Asda

"food parcels" LOL!!!

Time to do some home cooking, eh Peter? :-) Or, chunnel to France!

Try drinking some Australian or Chilean wines, they are less pricey than "haute" California.

Need to go make that Cranberry chutney now.

Lili

Actually Lilth I am keen on Italian, and had Hungarian last week. I am now on a virtual tour trying to find underpriced, undervalued, interesting wines which are not hyped by the pundits or too over-blown.

I used to like Rosemount...but then Aussie got too popular, so now I look at different vineyards....some S African is very good New Zealand is way too expensive......but a good Chablis takes some beating !

Isn't it amazing that sudden descent into inverted wine snobbery, rather like the rise or fall of the price of property in N1/NW5 can bring a terrific conversation to a glazed-eyed cessation. And of all people - Peter and Lilith! I suppoose it was getting a bit acrimonious.

"Wine snobbery!?" Get a grip, Mr. Pulley! LOL

It is drink—not decades old Cognac.

So, what libation is on your holiday table—iced tea? ;-)

We had a lovely Rosemount Shiraz with our holiday meal.

Lili

In vino veritas Mr Pulley, Lilth and I will uncork a bottle if they have not completely outlawed corks.....and you cabn read from your Wesleyan tract. LOL

You know, Peter, on this side of the pond synthetic corks are all the rage as being better at preserving wines than the real ones. The Portuguese cork industry is having a fit. And. . . some "fine" wines are being touted in screw top bottles.

They do work but. . . the aesthetics leave something to be desired. :-{

Lili

Hey Lilith,

We don't celebrate Thanksgiving here and although I'm a fervert yankeephile and enjoy your Californian reds I have to tell you that I am am still trying to recover from some locally produced stuff that I drank in the Sandcastle Vinery in

Yes Lilith, the EU is fanatical about synthetic, corks as well. Have you not tried your wine in Tetra Pak ? Don't !

Yes, I realize you don't celebrate Thanksgiving, Peter. But, don't you have some sort of "harvest festival" too? Many of the nations on the Continent celebrate harvest festivals such as Germany's "Erntedanktag". Although, it tends to be a church service and a folk festival instead of the biggest holiday to "pig out" of the year, as in the US. Seriously, Thanksgiving in the US is a bigger holiday than any other— including Christmas. :-)

As to the wine in the silver haggis. . . Actually, aside from the aesthetics, even today's "jug" wines are of better quality and quite drinkable and all wines are certainly more consistent than ever. Twenty five years ago wines were entirely dependent upon Mother Nature and the skill of the wine maker. Today, science and technology, not to mention stainless steel barrels as well as blending, have produced consistently high quality wines at (frequently) affordable prices.

I do love real wine bottles and real corks though. . . OK, OK, I could live with the "superior" synthetic cork, but at least we have to decant the jug stuff to make it look more palatable.

Hey, here's an ugly thought—when Islam takes over forget about the fruit of the vine! Any religion that is phobic about sex, dogs and wine can't possibly have mass appeal for civilization. Think the French will go to the barricades to save "Fifi" and their wines? ;-)

Do you know about the "Slow Food" movement? http://www.slowfood.com/

Lili

Unusual ideas can make enemies.

Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.

Morality by consensus is frequently morality by convenience.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.