Very convoluted. Time to read up on all your pro-Blair articles since 1997 and the misunderstandings over Ecclestone and the Bristol Flats etc. It is time to bring back Peter Mandelson to restore trust in government; then The Daily Mail will write supportive articles like you Melanie and convince the nation that all the diatribes against New Labour were just "misunderstandings" about a fine, decent, statesman Anthony Blair..........are you sure you are writing these articles Melanie, or do you have an understudy ?

Your adoration of all things Blair is bordering on sycophancy.

Jason

You have obviously accidentally posted on the wrong thread and perhaps the wrong blog - would you just check, please?

Tony Blair is a lawyer by trade and lawyers tend to look at all the angles to a problem but rarely do they have to make a decision themselves: their clients make the real decisions based upon the lawyers' advice, and if they get it wrong, it is their fault and not their advisors' responsibility given the usual warnings about chances of winning or losing a case. The Prime Minister hasn't a department to run and doesn't actually have to make many decisions at all. He gives advice and his supine ministers follow it. So when it comes to a real decision, he's indecisive, and this has been true especially at the beginning of his period in office. He has to convince himself that his decisions are justified.

Unfortunately Mr President Bush made the decision to go to war with Iraq on whatever basis he thought best and our Tony had to follow suit and looked around, as lawyers do, for fig leaves of justification. Sadly intelligence is all a bit speculative and full of caveats as to veracity, so that particular fig leaf is a full of holes and with hindsight is seen to be really quite inadequate.

Melanie's belief that the Prime Minister is a truthful man is not borne out by the facts. One of his least likeable qualities is accusing the Opposition, whether Liberals or Conservatives, of policies they have never espoused, and hence integrity and honesty cannot be said to be a hallmark of his character. He also very rarely answers questions he is asked and goes off at tangents and makes counter accusations, again not the hallmark of a truthful man. He also seeks to portray himself as an ordinary straight sort of guy full of moral rectitude and a quiet Christian when he employs someone, who whatever his talent, no Christian would ever employ in any responsible capacity, let alone as a personal spokesman. No truthful man employs spin doctors to manipulate news and to feed the media and the public half truths and selective facts. No truthful man seeks to present himself and his party as something other than what it truly is. Integrity is shown by a man's actions and words.

Pride goeth before a fall, and Mr Blair has pride, arrogance and a desire to present himself as something other than he really is. He really is a little boy who by some stroke of luck finds himself at the helm of a great nation, but who is sailing in the dark without a true sense of direction, pretending to be a statesman. The Labour Party once had a philosophy based upon socialism. That is a vote losing philosophy now that socialism, marxism and communism are buried as failed utopian dreams. There is no new philosophy: the third way isn't a way at all, and the Labour Party no longer stands for anything other than a desire to have power. It remains the party of envy which seeks to destroy what is good and what works and replace insitutions and organisations it destroys with second rate substitutes full of Labour placemen. It remains a party which has a desire to interfere in people's lives and deny people opportunities while proclaiming the exact opposite. It's time the whole rotten lot of them were got rid of as they are all clearly unable to govern with integrity or in a disinterested way for the common good.

We have a Govt on the defensive now that it has been in power long enough for everyone to feel the effects of its failed policies. The promises are broken and the wheel turns as it was Tony Blair who so pointedly attacked the Major Govt for breaking election promises on tax. New Labour promised not to put up income tax and instead didn't index link allowances and reduced reliefs on income tax and put up national insurance. Net effect is that everyone is paying more tax and national insurance and getting less take home pay, so any denials of not putting up tax are based not on truth but lawyerly weasel words on the small print. On student fees the promise not to introduce them and the declaration that laws were passed to prevent them is a brazen broken promise and no truthful man would claim that because the new rules come into effect in the next Parliament, it isn't a broken promise for one good reason: no where does the manifesto say that the promises are for one Parliament only, and to infer that is obfuscation. Any man who believes himself justified to break a promise on this basis is living in self denial of truth.

Jason

What are you on about? You must be one of those 'Anoraks' Melanie refers to. If you write something, at least make it coherent.

Leadership by consensus always falters when confronted by emotional issues where no compromise is acceptable. There is no more emotional issue than war.

Attempting to win a war by consensus will always be a muddled mess. In those cases, leadership requires doing what is right and having the courage to live with the consequences.

Peter:Melanie did not say she believed Tony Blair was a 'truthful man'.She wrote only that he was honest 'on this occasion'(the war,that is).Not that I disagree on you any of the wider points.

Peter......super posting !

What's wrong Mr Pulley can't you see sarcasm or must it be more self-evident ?

I cannot accept what Melanie has written as being anything but a satire on a mendacious, self-deceiving actor who learned his lines to become Prime Minister and has debased everything he has come into contact with.......he is truly a Hollow Man

Jussi -

"For many people, the reason is clear. They think the Prime Minister misled the country about the threat posed by Saddam and the urgency of dealing with him.

Personally, I do not share that opinion. I thought the war was justified, and I also believe that Mr Blair has told the truth throughout."

That's what Melanie says. I don't believe that Tony Blair has told the truth throughout... he's got form on being economical with the truth and a willingness to use warm sounding words to hide the vacuity of his arguments. New Labour as a concept is all about spin and the use language to persuade the gullible floating voters (and all elections are won or lost on the votes of those willing to be persuaded to change their minds from last time - in other words people who have no fixed view) that white is the new black and/or black is the new white. Truth is (whatever philosophers may say) an absolute. Either something is true or it is not true. Our Prime Minister prefers shades of grey to black or white when it suits him and the exact opposite when that suits. A political chamaeleon can only fool the people for a while before it is all too apparent that someone who changes his colours to go with the flow is not to be trusted.

Again Peter, a good post.

Melanie cannot seriously believe that Blair "told the truth throughout" - it would be to 'do a Hutton' and ignore exactly what was said, written, and leaked.......

Melanie cites excellent, sane reasons for going to war against Saddam. The war on fundamentalism is urgent, as is the introduction of democracy to theocracies.

However, none of this was of any consequence to Blair. He wasn't even interested enough in Saddam's weapons deployment capability to ask anyone. He didn't care. He heard "45 minutes" and that was enough. He wanted to go to war and he had his soundbite for going to war. And nothing was going to stop him. Dr. Kelly got in his way, but not for long.

This is one of his favourite roles: Tony Blair, boy war leader. He has been play acting at being the prime minister of a great country for seven years, but it is all fantasy. This is the most cack-handed, inept government ever endured by Britain. As Peter said so well, there is no underlying desire to forward the interests of Britain or to serve British citizens - far from it! In this government, there is absolutely no underpinning of deep political commitment. Their only commitment is to power. Look at them! The gang that couldn't shoot straight! But Blair's got a fast line in patter and many people simply did not see through him before now. And, as Peter said, he has form in his economy with the truth. In fact, he's been a blatant liar since the first day he got into office. He even tells lies just for the sake of it. Stowing away to the Caribbean from Newcastle airport as a 12-year-old, for example. The man's a fantasist.

Blair has failed on every single important issue he has tackled (or rather, issued an announcement on), and instead occupies himself with lowering the age of consent of teenage homosexuality, legalising homosexual acts in public lavatories, incorporating the absurd "human rights" act into British law, although this benefits no Briton except those taxpayer-assisted special interest groups (birth certificate changes for the "transgendered") and his wife's law firm. And bringing Peter Mandelson back again. And again. And again. And wringing money out of Indian businessmen. He took a wrecking ball to the House of Lords without the faintest idea of what to put in its place. He is trying to remove the post of Lord Chancellor without having a child's understanding of how that post serves our legislature and constitution. He has failed to protect our borders from hundreds of thousands of invaders who have no right to be in the country. Public services are falling apart.

I do not think he told the truth about the 45-minute issue, and I don't think he lied. I don't think he was interested, just as long as he had his moment of drama.

But very small percentage of the electorate voted for Blair at the last election (26% was it?), and a vast tranche of them now feel he lied to them. They won't vote for him again. So he's going to lower the voting age to 16.

Caroline

You make some good points but for those of us who remember the ERM debacle, it would take some going for this government to be as useless as Major's.

Yes, Blair does like to be all things to all men, and yes, Campbell ruled the roost in an embarrasing manner. However the essential point of Melanie's piece is that the we face an enemy that will do anything to destroy us for no other reason than we exist. The war in Iraq has shown a willingness to make a stand and, however late in the day, enforce UN resolutions.

"But Saddam wasn't a threat!!!"

There was enough evidence to suggest he was. He had toyed with the international community for more than a decade. Leaving him in place was evidence plenty that the West lacked the will to take a stand. Syria et al have now been put on notice.

Blair's failing was forcing the WMD issue - although his party is such a miserable bunch of pacifists he had no alternative.

Brian - Nowhere in my post did I suggest that the war was wrong. In my first sentence, I said it was necessary. We have to change the geo-political map of the Middle East. We had to depose Saddam pour encouragers les autres. I have never waivered in this.

The point was Blair's reason for going to war. Some people believe he lied. I believe he had no interest one way or the other. He just thought it would be a neat photo op posed on a tank in a bleached white shirt and a fake tan with adoring troops grinning up at him. That it didn't happen doesn't mean he didn't think it would. He doesn't think any further than appearances. He has no capacity for understanding complicated issues. It's all very simple: will I look neat?

You say his party is a miserable bunch of pacificists, and of course, they are. And so is Tony. He and Cherie are ex-CND. Tony Blair found himself able to put personal glory ahead of principles. So no surprise there, then.

"You make some good points but for those of us who remember the ERM debacle, it would take some going for this government to be as useless as Major's"

Yes I do recall how much the Labour Opposition pushed for Britain to join the ERM.

The main thing is to await the Big Bust from G Brown.....house prices are somewhat out of kilter with incomes; and I hardly think future graduates will be in a position to buy much with a 9% tax increase......

so I think we can start counting to a major housing crash........Boom & Bust as Gordon used to say

Peter

I agree with Romulus that your first post on this thread is a good piece, in fact much of it could have been cut and pasted from Melanie's numerous articles about Blair since he came to power. But where you divert from her consistent line on Blair, by suggesting that she asserts that Blair is a truthful man, you misrepresent her, in my opinion. She is merely asserting that throughout the incidents, and implications thereof, adjudicated upon by Hutton, Blair cannot be said to have lied if you stick to the evidence available. In no way does that mean that Blair is either a truthful man in the round, or that he is a good PM, or even a competent politician. I would be very surprised if Melanie meant that to be inferred from her above piece. In fact if you read what she says in it's entirety it means nothing of the kind.

I must say that Caroline's broadside on Blair is a cracker and though perhaps less charitable than Melanie's, warms the cockles of my heart.

But those of us who want Blair out almost as much as we wanted Saddam out, do tend to be a bit schizophrenic about Blair and the war. Mea culpa!

Jason

I'm sorry, old son, the trouble with jokes is, as Frank Carson, the Irish comedian would say, "It's the way ya tellum!" And I still don't get it. Perhaps one of the more intelligent posters will explain. But don't you try again yourself Jason, please. You'll confuse me even more than I am already.

Frank - I'm not posing as "one of the more intelligent posters" on this site, but I know the press on both sides of the Atlantic focused too closely on Saddam's threat to the West.

What most people on this side of the Atlantic have failed to understand is, one doesn't need a divining rod or to study the chicken entrails to figure out the current US administration. All you have to do is listen to what Mr Bush says. He tells the truth. This is disconcerting and hard to grasp by an electorate that has had Tony Blair as its head of government for seven years.

Mr Bush wants the Middle East to become more democratically accountable on the theory that, when people have a voice at the ballot box, they tend to be less pressed to participate in angry violence. WMD was never the issue with Mr Bush. What was required was, as Donald Rumsfeld described it, "shock and awe". We're doing this to Iraq, with few civilians casualties, and we can do it to you. So learn to say please, smile real nice and give your people a say in your government. Otherwise we will come back over and hit you up the side of the head.

K-dafty got the message first, but I believe the Syrian Boy Assad, as Mark Steyn calls him, and the chaps over in the Saudi desert got the point. Look for some primitive form of elections in Saudi Arabia in the not-too-distant future.

This was the point of the war. Not deposing a dictator. There are plenty of dictators we have no interest in deposing (although I would except the one in Downing St and Mrs Ceaucescu). Mr Bush said the war on terrorism may last for longer than our lifetimes. He has started to tackle it. Saddam was an incidental, but a critical starting point. It was always long-term. If you read Mr Bush's words, you will have realised that he understands the magnitude of the commitment he was taking on: saving Western civilisation. He started it, but he knows it is most unlikely this war will be finished under his watch.

Quite agree Caroline.

I have said much the same on many threads that have covered the various aspects of the central theme and I'm sure Bush regarded Blair's 'support' as a bane rather than a boon at times when he was trying to get the show on the road (for all the reasons you delineated above and many more that are perhaps less savoury).

Sorry, I was trying to get on the same wavelength as Jason, and I'm hoping that your last post was not a translation of what he said in his first post, or was it? He seems to think Melanie is a Blairite and I'm sure she doesn't imply that in the above article. We both know she isn't, surely? I agree with Jason's description of Blair in the second post, but still can't understand why he thinks that 'Melanie's adoration of all things Blair borders on sycophancy.'

That's not the Melanie I have read for several years, or even at the top of this thread. Melanie is big enough to look after herself, I guess, but as you know, she wisely does not enter the fray once she has posted he piece (she would go bankrupt I guess, trying to fend off the hostility of so many of her guests and neglecting her paymasters). Leaving Jason for moment, I think that your discussion of the wider implications of US muscle flexing and your correct assessment that it is what what the potentates of Islam understand, are very important. The positive side of that is something that has hardly been covered by any of the media, except perhaps Fox News. The British media hate to admit that it has been effective as it would undermine their anti-war stance. But my fear about the turn of events since the Hutton Report, is that even the pro-war lobby (pre-Hutton) in their haste to cut Blair off at the knees are implying that because 'he lied about WMD' then the war was unnecessary. As you point out above, that is b.s. - it was necessary pour encourager les autres and boy! - have les autres reacted?

“We're doing this to Iraq, with few civilian casualties, and we can do it to you. So learn to say please, smile real nice and give your people a say in your government. Otherwise we will come back over and hit you up the side of the head…”

Caroline’s clumsy and ill-judged humour may jar and offend with its unthinking hubris, but its very offensiveness inadvertently illuminates a rather pertinent consideration. In this attempt to “save western civilisation” (or, if you prefer, to secure Iraq’s oil supplies until they are exhausted in a decade or so), Bush’s ambitious gamble may not exactly be welcomed with open arms and cries of “Oh, thank goodness!”

If Caroline’s assessment is true, and conceivably it is, the Bush administration’s globe-shaping ambition sounds like a declaration of open-ended war, albeit against a number of unsavoury cultures. The ramifications of this, both practical and moral don’t seem to intrude on Caroline’s thinking, but perhaps they should intrude on ours.

One might pause to reflect on just how closely such a belligerent and expansionist worldview mirrors that of certain other historical conflicts, and how uncomfortably difficult it may be to distinguish the good guys from the bad. Who, for instance, will be recorded as the aggressor? One might also note the practical difficulties of beheading despotic regimes based on regressive tribal cultures. Once the despot in question is removed (at whatever civilian cost), ancient tribal disputes are free to emerge, effectively reducing stability even further.

While the notion of “one world, one operating system” may hold superficial appeal, the risks and moral implications of attempting such a vision are daunting to say the least. Is freedom (such as Americans conceive it) something to be imposed by force?

"All you have to do is listen to what Mr Bush says."
funny that i always thought to judge someone by their actions not their words. another invaluable lesson learned from you caroline.

"By now, most people are glassy-eyed at all this claim and counter-claim about who said what to whom. Who but a few anoraks and obsessives is following all this in detail?"

I think you will find the british public is follwing this, ms. phillips. our sense of moral responsibility to the consequences of our governments actions are as keen as your sense of discipline to the powers that be.

David Thompson

Perhaps I can ask you this, as I have posed the question in vain before on this blog: what would have ensued in your opinion if Blair had not won the parliamentary vote to sanction the UK to join the coalition of the willing in their invasion of Iraq; the unnecessary vote that is - because (and Romulus has pointed out before) as Prime Minister it was within his prerogative to have done so willy-nilly had he not been trying to placate his anti-war lobby. Please assume for this exercise that, having lost the vote, he acceded to the wishes of parliament and told Bush, "Deal me out -the natives are revolting and won't let me play." Your prognostications would interest me greatly. Perhaps it is such a stupid question that you deem it unworthy of an answer, but please humour me.

Frank
May I push in before anyone else as having lurked in the background I can't risist a broadside.

In answer to your question "what would have happened?"

The USA would still have gone in as they had been preparing for it for at least 2yrs (if not more) before.

That there was no WMD insitu was known as they watched it being sent over to Syria on the satellites

like they watched the 3000 + terrorists being moved out of Afghanistan before hostilities.

Like they Knew Saudi Arabia was financing the Muslim H bomb and the Madrasses and Mosques with their Immams in them to spread the message.

Like they knew the Pakistanis were helping with the H bomb and aquiring telecomm and telemetry expertise for said bomb.

Like they (USA)sold AwacS to Saudi so giving Islam an eye in the sky and F15's which are now stationed less than 2mins away from Israel, against agreement.

Like they watched the Chinese build the rocket base 90kms S/w of Rydiyah and supply the rockets all capable of hitting Greece let alone Israel and NBC capable.

Oh it goes on and on.
And I haven't even got started on Eschelon and reading our mail and whatn they probably know.

I can see that they had to go in to say to the rest of the MidEast & Islam,
"Well boys this is as far as you go as it's gone up a notch now and we're not going to let you go there".

Sadly they will sell out Israel yet again to achieve their own tempory security as no one will actually tell the truth on that issue.
Namely that the Islamists want the total destruction of Israel nothing less.

They, Bush and Blair don't have the balls to honestly say to the UN or the world,

"Now is the best time to say to all the dictators and tyrants in the world, After 911 we all now know that the bar has been lifted and whole cities will be next.
That means anywhere in the world. So gentlemen, we have to start with you.
Regime change and democracy ASAP.

The UN will continue to be a waste of time unless everyone stands firm on basic Values and the whole community enforces it, across religious and ethnic lines".

Do you see Bush and Blair doing that?

MikeNZ

Frank,

I don’t have parallel time-lines for events that did not happen, so I could only speculate wildly. However, I think Mike NZ and Caroline have said what our politicians apparently find unsayable. Clearly, it is felt by many that the Islamic theocracies (particularly when armed with nuclear technology) pose a grave threat and must be “civilised”, presumably by force. While I share their distaste for such regressive cultures, the actions being proposed are deeply problematic.

“Pre-emptive correction” or “coercive westernisation” raises a number of concerns, both practical and moral. One obvious concern is that, by dodging what may be their real motivation, our politicians are undermining the democratic ideals that they claim to be defending. We are being lied to in the name of advancing freedom.

How can an electorate, whether British or American, trust its respective leaders if we are presented with a disingenuous agenda and evasive justifications? If an open-ended war against those we view as both anathema and threat is to be declared in our name, ought we not to know exactly what we’re endorsing? And shouldn’t we have a chance to consider the ramifications of such an objective? Isn’t that the western democratic ideal?

Even if one supposes that the most obvious course of action is the one advocated by Caroline and Mike NZ, and that is by no means certain, the fallout of such action could be more horrific than any of us dare to imagine.

Reshaping the world in our own image is an egoistic wet dream, but it is unlikely to be as clean and free of consequence as some might choose to imagine. As I’ve said, is freedom (as America conceives it) something to be imposed by force? And, in realising this grand design, how much like our rivals will we have become?

Questions, questions…

I'm astounded at the level of confidence in policies that clearly have misfired, and the generalisations that are used to support quite spurious theories.

We all have our opinions, but I don't share any enthusiasm for the gung-ho approaches listed here.

In fact, despite the bullish tone of many of the posts, when re-read, they actually seem to be written from a position of fear rather than confidence.

Caroline's words of the 'hundreds of thousands of invaders' are simply racism, no more, no less, as they seem to ignore the fact that we are currently holding Iraq hostage with...er...hundred of thousands of invaders.

Except most of ours are 'democratic' invadaders - or is that being too reductionist?

Similarly, another generalisation here:

"After 911 we all now know that the bar has been lifted and whole cities will be next".
How do you know that? Why? When?

Isn't it possible that 9/11 was an exceptional event? And that was the sum total possible of all Al-Queda's efforts?

Of course, to justify wars, you need a good reason, so saying that 9/11 was the start of World War III makes it a bit easier to get everyone frothing and twitching.

I am no fan of Blair, but to suggest that his program is largely designed to allow homosexuals to have sex in public toilets is barely worth a response, except to say 'grow up'.

I agree that Pakistan are probably more dangerous right now, given they do have nuclear technology, but isn't that precisely why we HAVEN'T invaded them?

Therefore neatly proving the deterrence theory, which we developed to justify our own arsenals, and also proving what hypocrites we all are.

Musharraf is probably up to his neck in nuclear corruption, but are we planning an invasion of Pakistan? Of course not.

Why? Well, it's too dangerous for one thing.

"Why? Well, it's too dangerous for one thing"

Dangerous only for Pakistan. The fact that they have nuclear weapons makes fighting a nuclear war much less problematic than if it was a non-nuclear power. I doubt Pakistan's launch system would be effective before India,the US, or Russia eradicated them....the Russians did warn them before of the consequences of sponsoring Muslim terrorists in southern Russia..........India must be smiling like a Cheshire cat

Well that's all right then.

So assuming Russia, India or the US does 'eradicate' Pakistan, then what?

All these Nuclear Threats are getting me hot...

Whether you get 'hot' or 'cold' is immaterial. It matters not one jot. The threshold of nuclear war has been lowered by Khan, and it is inevitable that such weapons will now be used. That is what proliferation means.......

Pakistan has now got 'the nuclear curse' - it cannot be uninvented, it costs a fortune to maintain, and they cannot threaten to use it.........meanwhile they have huge illiteracy and poverty and are in the gunsights of every nuclear power.....it is really quite tragic....but at least Mr Khan has 22 houses

I am not suggesting that the West undertake a missionary programme to "reform" the Middle East because we want to do them a favour. We would have been fine with the Middle East as it is, but they have made themselves into a hotbed of aggression against the West. That was stupid, because we are stronger than they are. We are also infinitely more innovative. If a boa constrictor is about to drop out of a tree onto me and I have a gun, I am going to use that technology to shoot the snake, not reason with it.

In that rigid, bigoted, mullah-ridden part of the world, tolerance and laissez-faire is regarded as a weakness. This is why we must be intolerant of assaults upon our enlightened societies.

I am not suggesting that we drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st Century. I'm saying we are not going to allow them to blow us back into the Dark Ages.

Re Pakistan's nuclear bomb - frankly, as long as India has the superb armed services it has, and the superior technology that gets invented by scientifically curious minds, Pakistan's nuclear bomb would be disarmed before it ever got off the ground.

This is why I have no respect for Blair and his hot air about WMD - whether he was lying or not. WMD were totally irrelevant to this war and to make them a keystone of such a massive undertaking as reshaping the entire geo-political context of a fairly large part of the globe was weak. The Americans were determined to establish a genuine democracy in the Middle East. This is far easier to accomplish in an already secular society than a mullah-ridden society. It will only be a short step for Iraq to become a democracy, and thus an example within the terms of their own culture.

Either Blair didn't really understand why Messrs Bush and Rumsfeld were prosecuting this war, or he was too cowardly to run the case by the British people. Or - my own theory, based on nothing other than instinct and having watched Blair posturing emptily for six years - he was hoping until the bitter end to serve the purposes of his European masters and dissuade the Americans from attacking Saddam. Go back to his beloved UN and Kofi au Lait and listen to 25 million more lectures from third world thugs and kleptomaniacs. Whatever. There was certainly no moral purpose behind Blair's determination to go to war. He's an appeasenik multi-culti.

Actually, in strictly logical terms, proliferation does not “inevitably” lead to nuclear warfare, though it does heighten the likelihood of such a scenario.

However, apocalyptic assumptions of a predestined Armageddon heighten that likelihood even further. And should that scenario arrive, many of us may find “illiteracy and poverty” right in our own back yards.

I am not suggesting that the West undertake a missionary programme to "reform" the Middle East because we want to do them a favour. We would have been fine with the Middle East as it is, but they have made themselves into a hotbed of aggression against the West. That was stupid, because we are stronger than they are. We are also infinitely more innovative. If a boa constrictor is about to drop out of a tree onto me and I have a gun, I am going to use that technology to shoot the snake, not reason with it.

In that rigid, bigoted, mullah-ridden part of the world, tolerance and laissez-faire is regarded as a weakness. This is why we must be intolerant of assaults upon our enlightened societies.

I am not suggesting that we drag them kicking and screaming into the 21st Century. I'm saying we are not going to allow them to blow us back into the Dark Ages.

Re Pakistan's nuclear bomb - frankly, as long as India has the superb armed services it has, and the superior technology that gets invented by scientifically curious minds, Pakistan's nuclear bomb would be disarmed before it ever got off the ground.

This is why I have no respect for Blair and his hot air about WMD - whether he was lying or not. WMD were totally irrelevant to this war and to make them a keystone of such a massive undertaking as reshaping the entire geo-political context of a fairly large part of the globe was weak. The Americans were determined to establish a genuine democracy in the Middle East. This is far easier to accomplish in an already secular society than a mullah-ridden society. It will only be a short step for Iraq to become a democracy, and thus an example within the terms of their own culture.

Either Blair didn't really understand why Messrs Bush and Rumsfeld were prosecuting this war, or he was too cowardly to run the case by the British people. Or - my own theory, based on nothing other than instinct and having watched Blair posturing emptily for six years - he was hoping until the bitter end to serve the purposes of his European masters and dissuade the Americans from attacking Saddam. Go back to his beloved UN and Kofi au Lait and listen to 25 million more lectures from third world thugs and kleptomaniacs. Whatever. There was certainly no moral purpose behind Blair's determination to go to war. He's an appeasenik multi-culti.

Apologies for the double posting. My firewall, Zone Alarm, is an erratic performer to say the least.

Caroline,

I wish I could share your breezy confidence with regard to nuclear exchanges having tidy, unilateral outcomes.

Are you, by any chance, the devil in disguise?

Any decisions to make changes to the world order without the consent of those affected requires a lot of thought and a geopolitical strategy. In the past we have seen clear strategies emerge - Roman expansionism was based on maximising the wealth of Rome while at the same time maximising the power base of whatever general or emperor wanted to run the show.
German expansionism was more subtle, so that trade liberalisation and economic and political dominance of Prussia worked to form an Empire out of disparate small states. Britain's trading empire grew into a political empire, with naked greed the driving force tempered by the desire to spread Christian civilisation and justice to areas governed by despots. America's empire grew first by spreading westwards into land occupied by weaker peoples and then overseas to dominate Latin America economically, and then the rest of the world. Having given back control of lands formerly occupied by European powers, the result has been the restoration of the kind of despotism (with notable exceptions such as India) that justified (in part only) their original occupation. The main reason for colonial occupation was the search for wealth, and oil remains a strategic resource which needs to remain in safe hands so that the world can be supplied at reasonable prices.

So what is the West's real objective in the Middle East? The answer is stability, which means balancing whatever powers there are so that none dominate and that all are amenable to supplying the West with oil at the right price. When Iran was an ally of America, it could throw its weight around a bit because America believed the Shah could be controlled, and the Russians were not to get their grubby hands on Persian oil. When the Shah went, the anti American ayatollahs were a threat to stability, and Saddam Hussein was allowed to be the counter balance and could wage a long and nasty war both against Iran and the Kurds. Then he got too big for his boots, and invaded Kuwait, and so he got his come uppance, but the job wasn't done properly.

The Americans are now in Iraq, and so long as some new regime is nice to them, all will be well. The other countries all know that when push comes to shove the Yanks will squash anyone who steps out of line and threatens their oil supplies. If mad mullahs take over Saudi Arabia, you can guess who is going to go in and make sure more pro American people run the show after the Americans leave. As for Pakistan, it isn't a threat to America as Russia, China and India all have missiles pointing its way, as well as American submarines offshore. So Pakistan has to behave itself and make sure that the Afghan situation doesn't get any worse, or America will get cross and cut off support. The real joker in the pack is Israel which is attached to America by blood... many Jews and Christians see it as a precious jewel loved by God, and so has to be preserved from being overrun by its neighbours who all hate it. The defence of Israel is the likely catalyst to the greatest instability in the region should Muslim neighbours decide to attack it. America will put Israel before its own economic interests, and hang the consequences for exactly the same reasons as it will help Britain should we be attacked.

So what is Britain's strategic interest in the Middle East? Well, it doesn't really have any interest, but out of friendship with America, it seems to do what the Americans want to strengthen that friendship. That is possibly in our best interests as America remains top nation and will reciprocate (as it did in 2 world wars) to save this country from invaders.

American interest in the Middle East is purely economic as it wants to keep its oil supplies. When the oil runs out, you can be sure American interest in the area will wane. The Muslim world needs to know, as the Japanese learnt to their cost, that attacking America will result in her hitting back with dreadful consequences. The British who ruled the waves acted on exactly the same basis: be nasty to one of our citizens and we'll come and get you big time so that you don't do it again. Sure the Americans would like countries to be run on a democratic basis as those countries tend to spend more effort improving the lot of the electorate, which means switching resources from the military to civilian social projects. Democratic countries have better human rights, better welfare standards and tend to be more peaceable.

The real problem for the world however is that America is mired in debt and it may be unable to maintain its role as world policeman in which case some other countries may fill that vacuum, notably China. In the minds of some in Europe, that rival power bloc is The United States of Europe, but that is a pipe dream of a few Germans and a few French politicians.

The UN is an irrelevance as most of its members are toothless dictatorships and so America will not take any notice of what those dictators say when it comes to chastising American policy. Most dictators know which side their bread is buttered on, (vide Libya and Syria - both countries keeping their heads down not to upset America).

Tony Blair has at least enough sense to know that hanging on the coat tails of America is in Britain's best interest, but he attempts to hide the naked truth because it seems to make him look small and subservient, so he comes up with an imagined threat to Britain to justify his helping America. Our Tony doesn't like looking like Bush's monkey but there are times when even a Prime Minister has to swallow his pride and be the loyal slightly subservient ally rather than an equal. We ceased being an equal before the last world war, and to some extent America didn't like the Empire we had or the French had, and so did her best to be a nuisance in some of our colonies and spheres of influence (the Persian Gulf especially). Being honest to an electorate is sometimes uncomfortable and no Briton is too happy about being seen as an American poodle, but there are ways of presenting this in a positive light without having to resort to false arguments about this country being threatened by a tin pot blustering dictator who we subsequently find cowering in a hole in the ground.

Here endeth the lesson

David - We won't be resorting to nuclear weapons, and I doubt whether Pakistan would dare. The Indians are far more technologically minded, innovative and savvy than the Pakistanis and I will bet you they know the strength at which every last joint was welded on Pak's delivery system.

Peter, I agree with your substantive arguments. I would add that what we have going on is the slow evolution of the Anglosphere. Britain should join NAFTA and ditch Europe, which has zero to contribute. They've got one aircraft carrier, I think. Or maybe it's two and one of them's very old. Leave them to develop their fidgety little treaties and rules between themselves and let us cleave to our cousins the Americans, Aussies, Canadians, Kiwis and our kissin' cousins the Indians, Singaporeans and Malaysians. This amounts to something like 1.8bn people. This would form an amiable - one would hope! - counterbalance to the Mongols - China and Japan - more very smart, dynamic people. Screw Europe. They're irrelevant.

Finally, your point about Israel. It's not just because there's an influential Jewish lobby in the US -- actually, the percentage of the population is quite small except in NYC, Houston and the Gulf of Mexico area, and LA. But Americans do see Israel as the plucky underdog, and it is a democracy. I think there would be an enormous amount of very vocal and determined opposition, but yes, I think any American president with the exception of peaceniks Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter, would go to the defence of Israel.

"German expansionism was more subtle, so that trade liberalisation and economic and political dominance of Prussia worked to form an Empire out of disparate small states. Britain's trading empire grew into a political empire, with naked greed the driving force tempered by the desire to spread Christian civilisation and justice to areas governed by despots"

Peter I am really pleased that "German expansionism was more subtle" but Britain's was "with naked greed the driving force "...........funny that and I thought Prussia partitioning Poland in 1772 onwards was a trifle aggressive......and fighting wars at Sadowa, and over Schleswig Holstein against Denmark; and seizing German states "durch Eisen und Blut" was the opposite of "subtle"...an adjective rarely used in the German context.

Maybe Britain as a maritime power had to watch France colonise India, America Canada and decided to block this to avoid being encircled in Europe.....the war of the Austrian Succession and all that ?

Prussia 'subtle' ? You'll be saying Frederick The Great and BIsmarck were 'pacifists' next

"trade liberalisation "

not in Germany or Prussia - only Great Britain was not protectionist

Phil Wolstenholme - Calling me a racist with a view to shutting down the argument is a coward's manoeuvre. Could you people please stop trying to colonise the language with a view to closing down opposing points of view without having to actually come up with an argument? I do not want hundred of thousands of criminals sneaking around(in the country illegally makes them, by definition, criminals). Many of them will be from primitive societies and have nothing to contribute. Probably more of them will be the same race as me: Caucasian. I don't want them either.

We come to your next example of name-calling by suggesting that I "grow up". What kind of argument is that? Name one successful programme or law the Blair government has instituted. It has failed at everything it has touched with the exception of impertinent social fiddling around. Other than lowering the age of consent for homosexuality, deciding not to send first time (first time apprehended, that is) burglars to prison, prosecuting people for thought crimes, making homosexual acts in public lavatories legal and taking a run at lowering the voting age, what are this government's accomplishments after seven years in office? Blair panders to special interest groups. He is not interested in the fabric of Britain because he doesn't understand it. All he understands are special interests whose votes he can buy by pandering to them.

I am puzzled by your comments on Pakistan. "Isn't the fact that they have nuclear weapons the reason we haven't invaded them?" Wha'? Why would we invade Pakistan, a member of the Commonwealth? If we haven't invaded Zimbabwe, could you please tell us your reasoning for thinking we want to invade Pakistan and are deterred only by their fearsome grasp of technology? I am baffled about why you think we want to invade Pakistan.

"Isn't it possible that 9/11 was an exceptional event? And that was the sum total possible of all Al-Queda's efforts?" Uh. No. Can you say "Bali bombing"? Can you say "bombings in Istanbul"? Can you say "bombings in Morocco?" The intelligence services of the US, Britain, France, Malaysia and Singapore have uncovered and spiked other plans against the West, including several Western airlines. Do you read the papers?

"In fact, despite the bullish tone of many of the posts, when re-read, they actually seem to be written from a position of fear rather than confidence." Can't speak for the others, but I have confidence in Western technology and brainpower, thanks. Not scared. Not shaking. Just fine.

We're not holding Iraqis hostage. They're free to come and go as they please. As soon as we've got a legal system in place, we'll be out of there.

Caroline,

I suspect Mr Wolstenholme was citing your apparent preoccupation with homosexuals in toilets as infantile and unworthy, which it is. Not to mention rather bizarre.

Again, I have to ask: are you the devil in disguise?

Jason - it began with the Zollverein, or Customs Union starting in North Germany in 1818 and ending after the Austro-Prussian war in 1866 to the whole of Germany, quite some time after Frederick the Great had died. Prussia made a conscious effort to become the most powerful German state militarily in the late eighteenth century, but realised in the nineteenth century that a far subtler game could be played with less loss of life (Frederick the Great had had a few pyrrhic victories and the later Napoleonic wars depleted manpower quite badly) through Customs Union and after 1870 when the German Empire was declared through currency union. Before the first world war there were in theory a whole lot of "independent" states in Germany, with their kings and grand dukes on the coins which were all marks and pfennigs. The Zollbundesrat and Zollparlament developed into the Reichstag (Imperial Parliament) in the late nineteenth century and power was transferred to Berlin and away from the nominally independent states within the Empire. There would be no more wars between these little states anymore. The parallel with the European Union is uncanny. Bismarck was a very clever man and he could see that softly softly catchee monkey as ever closer political and economic union in the German Empire effectively swallowed up countries in 25 years which had been virtually independent for many hundreds of years (Saxony and Bavaria for example). The carrot and stick approach worked as Germany transformed itself from an agrarian country to a much more prosperous industrial country in a few decades as capital and labour moved freely inside the Empire and Prussian military might cowed any dissenters from the inexorable unification of Germany into one nation state. The last splutter of independence was put down by the Prussian dominated military in Bavaria in 1919. These countries, which had definite national identities, even if they all were Germans, were in existence longer than nation states like Italy or Greece or Finland, and they have vanished forever as independent nations.
History repeats itself and that is why it is worth studying as the same sort of things happen over and over again. Wise men learn from this while fools dismiss as useless the study of history (what kings and leaders did) and replace it with touchy feely speculations about social life in the olden days. Study of what men did in the past would have allowed this Govt to make a better fist of being an ally of America as we are not the first state to be a friendly but weaker ally of a dominating power.

David Thompson - Admittedly he is not very articulate and has a very restricted grasp of international politics, but when did Mr Wolstenholme appoint you his translator?

Passing a law to allow homosexuals to have sex in public is a very peculiar focus for a prime minister of a country whose public services are crashing down around his ears. It is not infantile to remark on this. The foul NHS, the appalling state of education in state schools, rickety, overcrowded and overpriced railways travelling over ancient tracks, open borders against the will of the electorate .. Blair is curiously paralysed when it comes to running a modern democracy. He scampers about making trivial adjustments there has been no demand for - lowering the voting age, for example - and pandering to special interests, setting up ever more "watchdogs" and "tsars" and regulators no one has demanded. It's a smokescreen to try to hide the fact that he has accomplished damn all in seven years.

Unlike the POTUS, who is the president of all Americans, this prime minister is the prime minister of blacks, immigrants, homosexuals, single mothers, yet he has precious little interest in being the prime minister of vast middle England. This is a dangerously divisive man. That I should comment on Blair's pandering to special interests is deemed "bizarre" by you. I wonder why.

David T

This 'devil in disguise' bit: that song's already been written, sung and was a hit, if you want to do a new arrangement, save it for your fans, this is not the place for it :-) LOL

Particularly when Caroline is writing some of the best sense I have seen around this blog. Whether you like it not, she still represents the majority view in England (as opposed to London or the other socialist republics and mullahdoms scattered around these now sceptic islands).

And as for:

"In fact, despite the bullish tone of many of the posts, when re-read, they actually seem to be written from a position of fear rather than confidence."

As someone who has been on the front line defending freedom for most of my long life, I have to tell you that if you ain't a little afraid, you ain't awake, brother. A frisson of fear keeps your bowels moving and you ready for action and your adrenaline on "fight or flight" mode. Caroline seems the type who would never chose "flight" and always press her internal "fight" button. Some may choose flight a temporary respite, but if you continue to employ it, you'll finish up in a hole-in-the-ground, hiding! Now who does that remind you of?

Think positive, David, and sometimes that means doin' rather than wishin'. What makes me guffaw today is the widely circulated suggestion that Gaddafi and Iran have come into line 'as a result of negotiation'. I don't suppose a couple hundred thousand coalition troops in the desert over in those parts had anything to do with it at all? Carrot and stick, David, that expression has been around a long time. And who was it who said, "Talk softly - and wave a big stick!"?

Really good posts, Caroline, thank you.

Caroline and Frank,

I fear I’m being painted as holding a position that I don’t actually hold. I would largely agree with your view of Blair as an inconsequential man, not to mention an opportunist and a fraud. (And I have to confess I was unaware of any law to accommodate those with a taste for lavatorial coupling. Evidently, I give too little attention to such matters...)

What concerns me is the blustering tone and eerie confidence of many posts. As you say, a little fear might be a healthy thing. We are, after all, talking about reshaping the globe by force, and the consequences of such an act are difficult to adequately anticipate.

People who persist in pushing their “fight buttons” are surely to be viewed with as much concern as those who would invariably give way? As a fixed posture, neither seems a particularly sound response, and habitual fight, like habitual flight, suggests a quirk of personality rather than an informed judgement.

And since when has representing the views (informed or otherwise) of the majority been a barometer of enlightenment or rational action? Perhaps this is a flaw of democracy? Certainly it's one common to journalism.

I would, however, take issue with Caroline’s assertion that Mr Bush is “the president of all Americans”, particularly in light of his apparent hostility to America’s economic underclass.

I'd like to edit the last paragraph of my previous post here. I wrote: "this prime minister is the prime minister of blacks, immigrants, homosexuals, single mothers, yet he has precious little interest in being the prime minister of vast middle England."

I thoughtlessly implied that the vast majority of blacks and homosexuals are not an integral and contributing part of the woof and warp of middle England and that was wrong. Also, I feel terrible that I categorised people as "blacks" and "homosexuals", as though that was the extent of their humanity. Please accept my humble apologies. This prime minister's divisiveness is toxic.

Peter I am so very familiar with the Zollverein, and I am aware of how much force was applied; and that the Reichstag had a two-tier voting rights system; and the tariffs used to protect Junker estates in Pommern; and the huge cost of the military in Potsdam and Brandenburg; and the deficit-ridden State budgets which used tariffs on wheat to try to balance the books.

There is noone who would consider Prussia to have been anything but a military machine; which destroyed Poland in the 3 Partitions and rapaciously seized the southern Catholic states by going to war with Austria then France.

You may as well say how 'subtle' the Kaiser and Hitler were in integrating Belgium and Poland and Austria-Hunary into their economic zone.

Your version is a bit GCSE

Zollverein, or Customs Union starting in North Germany in 1818 and ending after the Austro-Prussian war in 1866 to the whole of Germany, "

Sadowa 1866

Franco-Prussian War 1870

As a result of the Treaty of Frankfurt which ended hostilities, most of Alsace and part of Lorraine passed from France to the German Empire, and the French inhabitants could only retain their nationality if they left the area. France also had to pay huge war reparations.

1871-73 France transferred 22% annual GDP to Prussia

http://qed.econ.queensu.ca/pub/faculty/smithgw/transfer.pdf

The point of the column was, did Tony Blair take Britain into a war honestly, not how Prussia treated the French in 1871.

Caroline

I couldn't help but notice that all the countries you listed as cousins you wished to 'cleave to', happen to be former British colonies with fairly right-wing governments and overtly capitalist outlooks.

You've apologized for the 'blacks' and homosexuals' piece, so I'm not going to bang on about it, but I'm wondering why you're so avowedly hostile all the time? All your pieces are confident, yes, but all unremittingly negative, suspicious and insulting.

The reason I pointed out the racism issue was because you keep referring to foreginers in such derogatory ways that to be honest, I don't actually know how to argue back - in fact I don't want to argue on those terms about anything.

This happens every time I've joined in on this posts.
I get roundly insulted by the 'right-wing' for being a wimp, because I maybe disagreed with a point, then told what my philosphies are (which are usually the opposite of the truth, but no-one ever stops to ask me), and then insulted again for daring to point out a common thread in many of these posts, which is a total disregard for the wishes, beliefs and lives of countries you consider to be 'primitive', and an assumption that 'everyone's out to get us'. Paranoia, basically.

And I do find the relentless obsession with homosexuals shagging in toilets bizarre rather than controversial.

Now I don't want to assume what you will say, but I'm expecting something like 'well if you can't stand the heat...etc., and to be honest, if this is political discussion, then no, I don't have the time for it.

I prefer to go out and do something about it too.

Phil.

David T

You brought up the subject of fear as though it was a personality defect and I was merely expanding your theme a little and inveighing against jaw-jaw when the time for war has come.

After over 11 years of Saddam's sabre rattling despite empty threats from the UN, the West manifestly displayed it's weakness; as a direct result a tin-pot cadre of religious fanatics took heart and struck at the very nub of Western commerce, the late WTC: the heart of the West's defence, the Pentagon and, but for the bravery of the brave "Let's go!" passengers who were prepared to push the "fight" button on a third plane, they would have got the White House,too. We are talking about the core of our most faithful allies during the past 60 years!

Don't talk to me about conciliation in the light of those events, it is disgraceful. Bush did what he had to do and phoney Tony went along, with half his party pulling on his coat tails and kicking him in the shins, shame on them! Despite his shocking record in almost everything else and for whatever reasons he dug his heels in, it was the right thing to do. The semantics of "intelligence", which is bullshit mostly, and at best guesswork, are irrelevant and the sanctimonious crap about "lying to the country" is emetic. All politicians lie to the country most of the time. If Tony lied for (underlined) the country this time, then it's an improvement, but where's the evidence? Not in the Hutton report for sure. So Hutton is a liar too is he? Where does it stop?

If the West has to 'reshape the world by force' as you put it, because Western democracy and stability is under threat from madmen, so be it. The alternative is not an option. And you and others fail to mention the fact that if France, Germany and Russia had stood four square with the rest of the coalition, war may not even have been necessary against Iraq. Their duplicity was shameful. That's hardly been mention by the peaceniks since the liberation of Iraq.

Perhaps you would have said that Churchill had a "tone of eerie confidence" at the beginning of WW2. Strangely, though I want to see the end of Blair, because on domestic issues his record is abysmal, rather than having a 'tone of eerie confidence' I have an eerie confidence in Tone - on this one issue and that alone.

David you are, as I have said before, an intelligent, cogent, and well read man. I'm sure your artistic talent in writing and in the field of music reflects that,just as your friend and collaborator Phil Wolstenholme is a whizz kid with computer graphics. Those things are great for those of your generation and I wish you great success, but sweet reasonbleness and conciliation and electronic music and pretty computer pictures do not put off a determined threat by religious fanatics. And unless somebody looks to our defences and occasionally grabs the bull by the horns, you will not be able to do those things with the freedom that you do them now.

Caroline:

Don't be too remorseful about the wording of you last paragraph. I took it to mean that Blair panders to militant minorities to a ridiculous degree and thus expands the victim culture.
You are right. You were also right to staunch the barrels of the PC army, though, by clarifying it, before they diverted this thread into cloud cuckoo land.

Frank - Cogent post well articulated. My apology was not to spike the guns of PC apologists, though. It was sincere. I felt dreadful about having adopted lefty terminology to describe my fellow human beings. That's how insidious and divisive this PC speak is.

Frank,

Again, I find words are being put in my mouth, and positions attributed to me that are not my own. This is a depressing trend, and common to much of what is posted here. As I said in an earlier posting, polarised assumptions and combative language do little to advance the discussion in any realistic way, though they may make for knockabout sport and reinforce ideological reflexes.

I did not, to my recollection, suggest that fear is a personality defect; merely that habitual retreats (and likewise habitual aggression) quite possibly are.

It is not necessary to restate for my benefit the atrocities of September 2001. Nor is it necessary to state the need for determined action against ideological terrorism, as if that had somehow escaped my notice. I have never mentioned conciliation, nor would I consider it a viable option when faced with terrorist scenarios, particularly when of this magnitude.

My comments in this thread have largely been concerned with the broader ramifications, both practical and ethical, of the courses of action you and Caroline see as necessary. (As I understand it, your position is to remodel the Middle East by force, with a view to democratising the region.) Again, I have never suggested we kow tow to aggressors and hope for the best, whilst making sweet, sweet music in a dreamily decadent haze. Yet this seems to be the perverse implication being laid at my feet.

There may, as you suggest, be a generational element to the divergence of our respective opinions. Though as my own opinions as to viable courses of action have not been expressed, nor asked for, the degree to which they diverge (or indeed do not) is not known to you. Yet assumptions are made nonetheless, and made in a manner not dissimilar to those made by Caroline about “blacks”, “homosexuals” and the respective brainpower of entire races.

Hence, the “eerie confidence” to which I referred is evident here also.

Caroline

Yes, I'm sorry, I should not have qualified your apology, I'm sure you were, as always, sincere; didn't mean to imply otherwise. And I agree entirely about the corruption of language that has occurred over the past decade or more.

David

You can have the last word. Our mutual misunderstanding is irreconcileable.

Dear Phil, David T

Like Frank I have been at times in my life, at exteme risk of my life, mainly for others that they may live their lives in peace.

Sometimes this has been officially retributive or pre-emptive.

My post was not from a position of fear but truth as I see it.

I realise I am not of the same level of education and writing skills as some of you on this list and I find your digresses into minutae a little tedious at times as i find it hard to stay with the thread.

The core problem is that human beings tend (generally) to do things in escalating steps building on themselves based on experience and need (to thrill) or better the last one.

The psycological and emotive ladders used by certain communities keep to label or "rank" others as to their hardness or effectiveness comes to mind.

So it is with all our endeavours, it is all part of the human condition.

Globally terrorism has till now been confined to localised episodes of varying degrees of effectiveness.

No more.

911 (the WTC bombing was first) was the first successful globally planned aND ENACTED MULTIPLE ATTACK AT A STRATEGIC LEVEL.(oops)
Not by a sovereign state.

The bar has been lifted.

Unless the reaction to it by the victims against the aggressor/perpetrator is seen to be horrific and forthcoming.
It will happen again.
This is the human condition.

Some would argue that it is going to anyway as it is not sovereign states (with Land and a fixed geographic population base) but amorphous groupings of people that are the major threat.

Some state quite clearly that the threat is Islamic using terrorism to fufill their jihadic vision for the world.

This is the supposition of my post, that unless the community of nations agree to stop this happening and enforce it then we are just awaiting the next time.

This starts with those who fund, aid, direct and provide succour to these people (whomever they be).

But my point was, do you see the UN or it's members doing this?
or Mssrs Bush & Blair leading the way.

Caroline's grouping all have a history together and shared values. so slagging her for that actually is purile and not helpful to discourse.

Similarly one is not talking about westernising the world but a core set of values that we can all live under safely.

911 has given us the opportunity to draw a line in the sand.
I think we should take it.

So far this discussion hasn't covered chemical and bio agents, a good layman's primer might be "The Demon in the Freezer" if you're interested.
Whilst these weapons are a little technical to achieve, they are far more transportable than nuclear ones.

I should say that I think that we could live safely but we need to remove the safe havens for terrorists as no terrorist has ever been able to ply their trade with out a sovereign state supporting them up to now.

Similarly a major fly in the ointment is the stated goals of the Islamist nations to destroy the middle easts ONLY democracy. Israel.

This issue is not being properly nor fairly discussed and is intrinsic to the problem.

As for the side issues of Mr Blair whilst he may lay claim to a Christian heritage.
I think he is a situational value man based on his need at that point.

IE he is a man of preference not of principal.
therefore he will compromise his position to suit the situation or need.
This is common of people who lack integrity based on immutable values and of course hypocrites.

Some things in life are more important than life itself.
Mike NZ

I'm sorry I should have explained that the attacks on the Embassies and the USS Cole whilst multiple were small scale compared to 911.

They were strategic in that simultaneous operations against a world power of that magnitude but not strategic as in the heart of the beast..

"The point of the column was, did Tony Blair take Britain into a war honestly, not how Prussia treated the French in 1871.

Posted by: Caroline at February 10, 2004 07:13 PM"

The point of the thread to which I responded was that Prussia was "subtle" and Britain rapacious in seizing colonies with the implication that Britain should have been more like Germany in the past 2 centuries.

You should read more Caroline

Mike NZ,

Thanks for your latest post. I agree that the issue of how best to respond to this latest strain of terrorism has not been clearly or fairly discussed, by politicians or elsewhere, and as you say this is intrinsic to the problem. How can an electorate trust its leaders if they are unwilling to state their intentions on such a grave and daunting issue? As I posted earlier, the evasions and misleading agendas of our politicians (and parts of the media) undermine the democratic ideals they claim to be defending. Lies and evasions inevitably make us doubt the motives that may lie behind them, resulting in confusion and paralysis.

I’d also agree that the escalation of terrorism, in both frequency and scale, is probable, given the opportunity. The issue is surely how best to remove any such opportunity and restore stability, which in turn should dampen terrorist recruitment.

And this is where opinions differ. Again, as you say, one difficulty we face, perhaps the main one, is that our assailant is not conveniently fixed and bounded like a country. Previous wars have generally been between geographical nations and have followed broadly similar rules of one kind or another. Many of those rules concerned the treatment of non-combatants in struggles between rival states.

These precedents now seem inadequate to the task. So, the questions arise: Do we attack those who offer shelter to terrorists, whether intentionally or otherwise? And, if so, to what lengths do we go in order to remove that shelter? And does removing that shelter by force create new problems in the form of greater regional instability (which is itself a breeding ground for alienated and vengeful recruits to ‘the cause’)?

For instance, it is suspected that bin Laden is lurking somewhere along the Pakistani-India border. Yet any large-scale military attempt to neutralise him could easily destabilise that volatile region, perhaps provoking a war between two nuclear powers. Thus, the question arises: how do we eradicate a deranged prophet of the apocalypse without bringing about that very same apocalyptic scenario?

I suspect Mr Bush’s advisors are aware of this particular difficulty, and even they seem unsure of how to proceed with their principal objective. Hence the focus on smaller, more peripheral targets, like Saddam Hussein.

A few further thoughts:

One could, of course, argue that Muslim theocracies are inherently antithetical to Western democracy, with its free-wheeling consumerism and “decadent” women in short skirts. But surely fits of homicidal “retribution” require as a motive something more than cultural disaffection or ideological contempt? Surely some more specific and personal grievance must also play a part?

One might consider the extent to which the West’s historical “management” of the Middle East and other regions has inadvertently helped bring about this pronounced disaffection with Western societies. Historically, the West has rarely left the Middle East to its own devices. And the fruits of that interference include resentments of all kinds. With that in mind, one might also pause to consider what effect an even more overt “management” might have in terms of fanning such resentments.

This is not to suggest that attempts at conciliation or group hugging sessions are viable courses of action, but our best defence against terrorism involves an understanding of the factors that drive it, including our own past actions.

Clearly, a large chunk of the intelligence community are inept cretins. Time for a clean out, methinks.

After Iraq (hopefully) establishes itself as a democracy, we should take a stand-off approach to the Middle East, whilst persuing Bin Lid largely through police/spec ops means.

America needs to give the impression of isolationism for a while, to dispel notions of "crusading".

There should be a period of pretending to do nothing.

Hopefully Iran will become a democracy. If that happens, a Middle East peace process could well fluorish.

Cobalt,

“There should be a period of pretending to do nothing…”?

I was under the impression that this is precisely what the U.S. has been doing for several decades, with (-how shall I put this?-) rather unfortunate results…

Covert “management” is “management” nonetheless, and such manoeuvres are inevitably discovered, sooner or later. Isn’t the assumption of a right to interfere part of the problem?

"For instance, it is suspected that bin Laden is lurking somewhere along the Pakistani-India border. Yet any large-scale military attempt to neutralise him could easily destabilise that volatile region, perhaps provoking a war between two nuclear powers. Thus, the question arises: how do we eradicate a deranged prophet of the apocalypse without bringing about that very same apocalyptic scenario?
"

I doubt Pakistan or India will come to blows no matter what bin Laden tries. He is not Fu Man Chu or Dr Mabuse but a lucky-so-far fanatic of lesser importance than Mugnieh.

It is Pakistani troops that are going after him on the Afghan/Pakistan border...he is probably safer with Pastuns than with Kashmiris.....and I have no doubt that the SAS/US Special Forces/Pakistani Special Forces will get him in time.

As for dealing with terrorism - it is time to go back to the world before the Symington Commission; and find Station Heads like George Young of SIs to do "wet jobs" and eradicate terrorists through car bombs, sniper attack, and send out hunter-killer agents to remove such threats.

That will of course mean a shadowy world where the salons of Highgate will not need to be aware of what SIS-SO is up to, and where 'terrorist methods' are used against terrorist infrastructure and 'silent killing' becomes a regular occurrence in the shadows.

USA go quiet on the world?

I don't think so, they are in a race for resources and to keep their premier position in trade in the world.
look at the so called free trade deal with OZ this week.
yeah right!
little for OZ and everything for uncle Sam.

Practically we are considered Dhimmi to Islamists and they can do pretty much what they like to us including lie and break agreements as we aren't people to them.
As Islamists occupy many top level posts through out the arab world we need to be realistsic about this.

however there is no open discussion about this worldview in the name of tolerance.
As long as we keep having these "pretend agreements" we are fighting with an arm around our back.

As much of the support for Al quaida and others comes from the islamic family of nations there is where we need to be very firm.

America has been less that resolute and hypocritical due to her past performance supporting these regimes.

I read one report that they watched 3000 people move out of Afghanistan over a week or so and did nothing.

911 should be a line in the sand for everyone.
it is possible for a small determined group of people to destroy a city using bio or chemical means.

We don't necessarily have to attack anyone.
if the community of nations enforced a no fly zone on a nation until it stopped or handed over materials or people that would stop a nation in it's tracks.

closing down all it's activities in the host country except a small number of accredited people also sends a message in the stages leading up to closing the airspace.

I do want to make the comment that the EU financing the hate literature in Palestinian school curriculumns is going to bite the EU countries on the backside.

people don't have to be impoverished to become terrorists but conditioned to is just as good.
The Saudi apostolic evangelism of the madrasses they have planted all over the world achieves very much the same thing.
and we have allowed it even in our own countries.
6-8 hrs scholing today in a worldview that encourages jihad to the extreme.

where are our brains, what do we expect the fruit to be?

There is also much the USA has not explained about 911, just take the exodus of Saudis and others who were friendly to the administration amongst other things.
They need to be honest about these items and we do to about our part in allowing the situation to get to what it is.

If Prince Bandar Bin Saud and his wife and others are culpable then lets say so and get it out in the open.

If we don't come clean then we are essentially turning the lights on and off as we are fighting close quarter room to room with societies enemies.
That's stupid.

In todays world if we make a mistake it will be 50,000 people down the toilet.

Mike NZ

Rom

Are you full-time Echelon, or just on 'associate' contract?
:-)

Mike

"In todays world if we make a mistake it will be 50,000 people down the toilet."

Multiply that by several and that's how many go down the toilet every day in the normal course of things. We each have our personal Domesday, come what may.

Mike

And when you get as close to it as I am to mine, you'll stop worrying about it. Gather ye rosebuds ...

Rom -OBL's a smear of DNA in a cave somewhere along the Pakistan/Afghanistan border. History.

Jason - I don't like your fascist attitude that I should read more on subjects that interest you. The arguments of authoritarians are always riddled with egocentric assumptions. I have no interest in Prussia and won't be reading about it.

Phil Wolstenholme - Yes, Phil, the countries I cited as being members of the Anglosphere are so named because they all use English for their commercial, legal and legislative transactions. The reason they all speak English is, they were all part of the British Empire. There is no more British Empire. We now have the British Commonwealth of which all but the United States is a member.

This is why we don't refer to Venezuela, for example, as being a member of the Anglosphere. I would have written this in simpler words for you, but Anglosphere has three syllables.

"There is no more British Empire. We now have the British Commonwealth of which all but the United States is a member."

But Zimbabwe is not a member and Mozambique is !

Curiouser and curiouser

Rom - And your point is? What's curious? Are you the only person in the Anglosphere who doesn't understand the term? English isn't the official language in Mozambique. They do not share English Common Law. They are not members the Anglosphere.

I understand the terms of membership of the Commonwealth were set up pretty sloppily. Everyone thought it so self-evident that it was for members of the old Empire that it wasn't actually written down. Therefore, when Mozambique, somewhat quixotically, applied, there was no way they could refuse to admit it.

I believe Zim is still a member of the Commonwealth. I don't recall reading that it had been expelled. Jack Straw's never going to find it in his heart to expel a Marxist dictator.

Of the countries I listed, all are members of the British Commonwealth except the United States. The British Commonwealth is not synonymous with the Anglosphere.

Caroline

Is is possible for you to reply to one post without insulting someone?
I don't get offended by all these digs one bit - I just find it amusing that you are still digging deeper and deeper to try and hurt people without actually making a point. So it is a bit frustrating for me not to retort in a similar fashion, but that's not why I come to this website, read the articles or post comments.
Believe or not, despite disagreeing with what Melanie Phillips often writes, I do enjoy reading her articles. I'm starting to enjoy this forum a lot less, as it's completely the opposite of what I thought it was.

"The arguments of authoritarians are always riddled with egocentric assumptions."
Priceless.

I trust we will hear less of the "Anglosphere" now its chief barker, my lord Conrad Black, has been shown up for the Maxwellian character he is. Like so many subverters of national independence, an international pickpocket on a suitably global scale.

My intention is to make my points, not to wound - except when I scent a socialist. You sound like a very delicate flower, Phil, if you are so easily hurt by a total stranger posting on a blog!

WJ Phillips - Has Conrad Black been proved to have acted illegally? I ask out of genuine interest. Has Lord Black threatened anyone with a libel action, as sleazebag bully Maxwell so habitually did to gag anyone with the temerity to write the truth about his vast crimes and scams?

The Anglosphere is considerably bigger and stronger than Lord Black or, indeed, any one country. It is gathering pace and will take another giant step forward when Britain, under the Conservatives, joins NAFTA, which will be re-christened North Atlantic Free Trade Association (so they won't have to change the stationery).

The Iraq war, while in many ways valid, has produced a nasty outbreak of Anti-Americanism which cannot simply be ignored.

This Anti-Americanism is odious and nasty, and shows that the Left's preaching about compassion is bogus (witness the Independent's hateful, xenophobic bile).

Bush's unilateralism and ignorance make him completely unfit to lead a "war against terror", he lacks the nuance and skill required.

It would require a President with steely resolve, AND subtlety and persuasiveness.

They (the Islamists) act like friends amongst us, and plot against us at night...so...we should adopt the same strategy...make them feel overconfident, while we close the net around them quietly.

Blair has politicised the civil service, sacrificed British troops to appease his backbenchers (none of whom turned up in Parliament when there was a vote on UK troop deployment in Afghanistan), and has made a pig's ear of it.
His desire to be liked has crippled the effectiveness of his moral resolve.

"It is gathering pace and will take another giant step forward when Britain, under the Conservatives, joins NAFTA, which will be re-christened North Atlantic Free Trade Association "

Sounds like Spain would fit in perfectly there, with Mexico, Texas, Florida etc having Spanish as sucg a familiar tongue

Romulus - I've raised the Spanish point myself in the past. Why not? Texas and Florida are Anglophone, notwithstanding Cuban exiles and immigrant migrant workers. But Mexico's Spanish-speaking. This is separate from the Anglosphere issue, though.

On the other hand, I'm not sure we want to engage with Euro-socialists. Anglosphere countries, whose laws are based on English Common Law tend to be the most dynamic and enterprising societies and, until Blair got in, the least shackled by rules and regulations and red tape.

hi there

The Saga of Karl Gustav HAMMAR&Torbjörn JOHANSEN&John S. TORELL; "The True Christians always struggle against the Zionism, also Jewish Fascism"... (Int. English language version)

**
- We just watched a close version which called; "Mellan Livets ord
och satanens marknadsanpassade verserna"... - Show goes on; I
understand.. Well, this is the "Brand New" version of ongoing cruelity of
profiteers who still collect the benefites by the way of religius mnanipulative
industry... Also, English version labeled; "The Living Stories; Livets ord coup
against Christianity... - Let's watch it!..

**
- I would like begin with a joke!..
- You are welcome!
- A man is caught in a terrible rainstorm in the town of Vaexsjö, Skaane. For
days and days it rains without stopping, causing a flood. He is trapped in his
house, but since he is a man who has great faith in God, he is not worried. He
believes that God will save him. By the fifth day of rain, his basement is
flooded and his neighbors are starting to evacuate their homes. His neighbor,
driving an all-terrain vehicle, offers him a ride to higher and drier ground.
"No, thank you," the man replies. "God will save me." The rain continues. In
fact, it grows worse. By the eighth day, the first floor of his house is under
two feet of water, the street in front of his house looks like a river, all his
neighbors have left and he is alone in his house sitting on the dining room
table calmly eating cereal. Suddenly there is a knock on the door. A member of
the Rescue Squad has arrived in a powerboat, and offers to take the man to
safety. "No,
thank you," the man replies. "God will save me." The rescuer leaves and the man
finishes his cereal. Three more days go by. It rains all three days without
stop. By now, the entire first floor is flooded and the man has to retreat to
his roof. The National Guard has been called in and on the afternoon of the
eighth day, a helicopter flies low over his house, dropping a ladder for him.
The pilot calls down, "Grab hold and we'll lift you out of here!" "No, thank
you!" the man yells back. "God will save me." Within two more days, the water
has risen so high that the man is about to drown. The town is utterly deserted,
most houses have collapsed and the street have became raging, turbulent rivers.
The man is sitting on his roof, waiting for God to save him. As the waters rush
around his neck, he begins to fear that perhaps God will not save him and he has
been mistaken all this time to have had faith in God. Plaintively, he cries out,
"God, why haven't you saved me?" A voice booms from heaven, "First I sent your
neighbor in an special terrain vehicle, then I sent the Rescue Squad in a boat,
then I sent the National Guard in a helicopter. What more do you want from
me?".. - What is the relation between the fanatic religious Jews who always piss
off all advices of Vatican?... - I'll say at the end of this conversation,
just after this radio inteview...
**

- Tv Channel Independent Laponia broadcasts an REPORT on the TRUE GENOCIDE...
- Let's watch it!.. - Father Audeh RANTISI and the other eyewitness
are telling... Eyewitness&Survivors&Independent Observators are telling; The
TRUE HOLOCAUST&The TRUE MASSACRES on The Folks, Working Class' & Minorities like
The Armenians, Assyrians, Palestinians, Indians, Iraqians, Cypriots, Laponians,
Leftists and Intellectuals, Scientists, Artists who support the Working Class in
the dictatorial sistems, Iraqi, Cuban, Libyan, Sudanese, Somalian and Afghan
Children who sistematically been slaughtered by the U.S.-Britannian killing
instruments and poor masses were been sanctioned by the U.N.-marionettes etc.
Massacres&The True-Holocaust; PALESTINIAN GENOCIDE... Testimonies of the
Eyewitness& Survivors& independent sources... THE TRUE FASCIST GENOCIDES on the
PEOPLES of MIDEAST: Remembrances of the Massacres at occupied areas in Mideast:
This story is a piece of the massacre-testimonies by Father Audeh RANTISI and
other eyewitness'...(-Übersetzen Sie es bitte auf deutsch als z.B. die
Erinnerungen von Father Audeh RANTISI und die Menschenrechtekämpfer, die
unabhängige Wissenschaftler/ und die andere Augenzeugen/Innen erzählen um das
Richtiges HOLOCAUST/MASSAKER an antiimperialistischen Personen / Häftlingen /
Gefangenen / Arbeiteklassen und an der Zivilbevölkerung / Armeniern, Assyriern,
Inidianern, Kurden, Laponen, Palaestinensern, Zypriotern und andere Völker aus
der okkupierte Gebieten im Nahen Osten z.B. Massaker von Al-Zaatar /Hebron /
Khan Younis /Kufr Qassem / Qalqilia / Qana /Qudüs / Sabra / Shatila / Tulkarem
usw da die vierte Konvention ignoriert wurden, was dauert noch bei der Betrug
und Heuchelei von UN Vereinte Nationen und auch die Massmorden an Gruppen und
Volksmassen wie die Fluggäste von El Al Boeing 747 Flugzeug 1992 in Holand und
die Fährschiff-Estonia 1994 in Baltikum, welche transportierte heimliche
nuklearmateriellen für USrael usw.) Fm Channel Independent Laponia insist to
REMINDER HUMANITY ! Eyewitness Father Audeh RANTISI and other eyewittness are
telling: -Day after day- In these extracts from his memoir, Father Audeh Rantisi
remembers the horrific scenes that confronted him, aged 11, when his family were
brutally deported from their home of many generations to make what life they
could for themselves in the refugee camps of Ramallah Father Rantisi was born in
Lyda, now the site of Ben Gurion Airport, in 1937. From 1955 to 1958 he attended
the Bible College of Wales, moving in 1963 to continue his studies at Aurora
College in the state of Illinois. He then served as a missionary in Sudan. In
1965 he opened the Evangelical Home for Boys in Ramallah, West Bank. In 1976
Father Rantisi was elected as Ramallah's deputy mayor and he is now the director
of the orphanage of the Evangelical Home of Boys.From "Blessed are the
Peacemakers ...The History of a Palestinian Christian" I cannot forget three
horror-filled days in July of 1948. The pain sears my memory, and I cannot rid
myself of it no matter how hard I try.First, Jewish soldiers forced thousands of
Palestinians from their homes near the Mediterranean coast, even though some
families had lived in the same houses for centuries. (My family had been in the
town of Lydda in Palestine at least 1 600 years). Then, without water, we
stumbled into the hills and continued for three deadly days. The Jewish soldiers
followed, occasionally shooting over our heads to scare us and keep us moving.
Terror filled my eleven-year-old mind as I wondered what would happen. I
remembered overhearing my father and his friends express alarm about recent
massacres by Jewish terrorists. Would they kill us, too? We did not know what to
do, except to follow orders and stumble blindly up the rocky hills. I walked
hand in hand with my grandfather, who carried our only remaining possessions-a
small tin of sugar and some milk for my aunt's two-year-old son, sick with
typhoid. The horror began when Zionist soldiers deceived us into leaving our
homes, then would not let us go back, driving us through a small gate just
outside Lydda. I remember the scene well: thousands of frightened people being
herded like cattle through the narrow opening by armed soldiers firing overhead.
In front of me a cart wobbled toward the gate. Alongside, a lady struggled,
carrying her baby, pressed by the crowd. Suddenly, in the jostling of the
throngs, the child fell. The mother shrieked in agony as the cart's metal-rimmed
wheel ran over her baby's neck. That infant's death was the most awful sight I
had ever seen. Outside the gate the soldiers stopped us and ordered everyone to
throw all valuables onto a blanket. One young man and his wife of six weeks,
friends of our family, stood near me. He refused to give up his money. Almost
casually, the soldier pulled up his rifle and shot the man. He fell, bleeding
and dying while his bride screamed and cried. I felt nauseated and sick, my
whole body numbed by shock waves. That night I cried, too, as I tried to sleep
alongside thousands on the ground. Would I ever see my home again? Would the
soldiers kill my loved ones, too? Early the next morning we heard more shots and
sprang up. A bullet just missed me and killed a donkey nearby. Everybody started
running as a stampede. I was terror-stricken when I
lost sight of my family and I frantically searched all day as the crowd moved
along. That second night, after the soldiers let us stop, I wandered among the
masses of people, desperately searching and calling. Suddenly in the darkness I
heard my father's voice. I shouted out to him. What joy was in me! I had thought
I would never see him again. As he and my mother held me close, I knew I could
face whatever was necessary. The next day brought more dreadful experiences.
Still branded on my memory is a small child beside the road, sucking the breast
of its dead mother. Along the way I saw many stagger and fall. Others lay dead
or dying in the scorching midsummer heat. Scores of pregnant women miscarried,
and their babies died along the wayside. The wife of my father's cousin became
very thirsty. After a long while she said she could not continue. Soon she
slumped down and was dead. Since we could not carry her we wrapped her in cloth,
and after praying, just left her beside a tree. I don't know what happened to
her body. We eventually found a well, but had no way to get water. Some of the
men tied a rope around my father's cousin and lowered him down, then pulled him
out and gave us water squeezed from his clothing. The few drops helped, but
thirst still tormented me as I marched along in the shadeless, one-hundred plus
degree heat. We trudged nearly twenty miles up rocky hills, then down into deep
valleys, then up again, gradually higher and higher. Finally we found a main
road, where some Arabs met us. They took some of us in trucks to Ramallah, ten
miles north of Qudüs. I lived in a refugee tent camp for the next three and
one-half years. We later learned that two Jewish families had taken over our
family home in Lydda. Those wretched days and nights in mid-July of 1948
continue as a lifelong nightmare because Zionists took away our home of many
centuries. For me and a million other Palestinian Arabs, tragedy had marred our
lives forever. Throughout his life my father remembered and suffered. For
thirty-one years before his death in 1979, he kept the large metal key to our
house in Lydda. After more than four decades I still bear the emotional scars of
the Zionist invasion. Yet, as an adult, I see what I did not fully understand
then: that the Jews are also human beings, themselves driven by fear, victims of
history's worst outrages, rabidly, sometimes almost mindlessly searching for
security. Lamentably, they have victimized my people. Four years after our
flight from Lydda I dedicated my life to the service of Jesus Christ. Like me
and my fellow refugees, Jesus had lived in adverse circumstances, often with
only a stone for a pillow. As with his fellow Jews two thousand years ago and
the Palestinians today, an outside power controlled his homeland-my homeland.
They tortured and killed him in Qudüs, only ten miles from Ramallah, and my new
home. He was the victim of terrible indignities. Nevertheless, Jesus prayed on
behalf of those who engineered his death, "Father, forgive them..." Can I do
less?
**
- After a break FM Channel goes on!...
- Deir Yassin remembered: Early in the morning of April 9, 1948, commandos of
the Irgun (headed by Menachem Begin) and the Stern Gang attacked Deir Yassin, a
village with about 750 Palestinian residents. The village lay outside of the
area to be assigned by the United Nations to the Jewish Gang State; it had a
peaceful reputation. But it was located on high ground in the corridor between
Tel Aviv and Qudüs. Deir Yassin was slated for occupation under Plan Dalet and
the mainstream Jewish Killing force, the Haganah, authorized the irregular
terrorist forces of the Irgun and the Stern Gang to perform the takeover. In all
over 100 men, women and children were systematically murdered. Fifty three
orphaned children were literally dumped along the wall of the Old City where
they were found by Miss Hind Husseini and brought behind the American Colony
Hotel to her home which was to become the Dar El-Tifl El-Arabi orphanage. Part
of the struggle for self determination by Palestinians has been to tell the
truth about Palestinians as victims of Zionism. For too long their history has
been denied and this denial has only served to further oppress and deliberately
dehumanize Palestinians in USrael, inside the occupied territories, and outside
in their diaspora. Some progress has been made. Westerners now realize that
Palestinians, as a people, do exist. And they have come to acknowledge that
during the creation of the state (!!!) of Zionist Occupational Mafia thousands
of Palestinians were killed and over 700 000 were driven or frightened from
their homes and lands on which they had lived for centuries.
** - Events related to the 50th
anniversary of the massacre... The 50th Anniversary Memorial Conference in Qudüs
and associated events around the world Qudüs, Tuesday April 14, 10 AM Deir
Yassin Remembered conference at Al Quds University, Hind Al-Hussaini Hall.
Speakers include Lea Tsemel, a prominent Jewish lawyer, Hashem Mahameed, member
of the Kenesset of Zionist Occupational Gang and two survivors of Deir Yassin
who will give eye witness testimony. Following the conference will be a march to
lay flowers at the site of the Deir Yassin massacre. Contact: Khairieh Abu
Shousheh, +972-2-627-6591 (W) or
+972-2-628-6207, Washington, DC - April 7, Tuesday: 4 PM at Gaston Hall in the
Healy Building, Georgetown University, 37th and O St. Daniel McGowan, Director
of Deir Yassin Remembered will speak on the significance of the Deir Yassin
massacre in 20th century Palestinian history and its role in the current peace
process. He will be available in DC for interviews through April 9. Mr. Assad, a
survivor who was 15 years old at the time of the massacre and lost over 30
members of his
extended family, will give personal testimony. He now lives in the United
States. Contact: Daniel McGowan, +1-315-781-3418, E-mail:Los Angeles, CA - April
9, Thursday: Vigil from 11 AM to 1 PM in front of Museum of Tolerance, 8786 West
Pico Boulevard. This Holocaust museum was established by the Simon Wiesenthal
Falsification Center. There will be presentations by prominent Jewish and Arab
Americans who lived in IUSael and came from some of the 418 Palestinian villages
and towns destroyed in the 1948 war. Photographs of 15 destroyed villages will
be displayed. Contact: Don Bustany +1- (213) 663-2112, Michel Shehadeh
+1-(714) 636-1232 W Sacramento, CA - April 9, Thursday: Noon rally at
University of California Davis quad in front of the Student Union Memorial
building. Co-sponsored by the Arab Student Organization, Arab American Club of
Davis..... They will read a list of 418 Palestinian villages that were
demolished in the 1948 war. This event will kick off a month-long series of
events remembering "Al-Nakba, The Catastrophe - 50 Years of Palestinian
Dispossession." Contact: Fuad Nijim
+1-530-757-7191 **

- Click on the articles button of FM Channel's website to browse an index of
article dealing with the massacre. Use the Sequence of Events below to read
about what really occured at Deir Yassin. Following are the events that took
place on the day of the massacre. They are listed in sequential order by the
time at which they occured. Use the arrow icons to
return to the Sequence of Events just below.Sequence of Events (there are a lot
of useful sites around of these subjects) Early in the morning of Friday, April
9, 1948, commandos of the Irgun, headed by Menachem Begin, and the Stern Gang
attacked Deir Yassin, a village with about 750 Palestinian residents. It was
several weeks before the end of the British Mandate. The village lay outside of
the area that the United Nations recommended be included in a future Jewish
State. Deir Yassin had a peaceful reputation and was even said by a Jewish
newspaper to have driven out some Arab militants. But it was located on high
ground in the corridor between Tel Aviv and Qudüs and one plan, kept secret
until years afterwards, called for it to be destroyed and the residents
evacuated to make way for a small airfield that would supply the beleaguered
Jewish residents of Qudüs. By noon over 100 people, half of them women and
children, had been systematically murdered. Four commandos died at the hands of
resisting Palestinians using old Mausers and muskets. Twenty-five male villagers
were loaded into trucks, paraded through the Zakhron Yosef quarter in Qudüs and
then taken to a stone quarry along the road between Givat Shaul and Deir Yassin
and shot to death. The remaining residents were driven to Arab East Qudüs. That
evening the Irgunists and the Sternists escorted a party of foreign
correspondents to a house at Givat Shaul, a nearby Jewish settlement founded in
1906. Over tea and cookies they amplified the details of the operation and
justified it, saying Deir Yassin had become a concentration point for Arabs,
including Syrians and Iraqis, planning to attack the western suburbs of Qudüs.
They said that 25 members of the Haganah militia had reinforced the attack and
claimed that an Arabic-speaking Jew had warned the villagers over a loudspeaker
from an armored car. This was duly reported in The New York Times on April 10. A
final body count of 254 was reported by The New York Times on April 13, a day
after they were finally buried. By then the leaders of the Haganah had distanced
themselves from having participated in the attack and issued a statement
denouncing the dissidents of Irgun and the Stern Gang, just as they had after
the attack on the King David Hotel in July, 1946. A 1987 study undertaken by
Birzeit University's found "the numbers of those killed does not exceed 120".
The Haganah leaders admitted that the massacre "disgraced the cause of Jewish
fighters and dishonored Jewish arms and the Jewish flag." They played down the
fact that their militia had reinforced the terrorists' attack, even though they
did not participate in the barbarism and looting during the subsequent "mopping
up" operations. They also played down the fact that, in Begin's words, "Deir
Yassin was captured with the knowledge of the Haganah and with the approval of
its commander" as a part of its "plan for establishing an airfield." Ben Gurion
even sent an apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But this horrific act
served the future State of The Zionist Occupational Gang well. According to
Begin: Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of "Irgun
butchery," were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives.
This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The
political and economic significance of this development can hardly be
overestimated. Of about 144 houses, 10 were dynamited. The cemetery was later
bulldozed and like hundreds of other Palestinian villages to follow, Deir Yassin
was wiped off
the map. By September, Orthodox Jewish immigrants from Poland, Rumania, and
Slovakia were settled there over the objections of Martin Buber, Cecil Roth and
other Jewish leaders, who believed that the site of the massacre should be left
uninhabited. The center of the village was renamed Givat Shaul Bet. As Qudüs
expanded, the land of Deir Yassin became part of the city and is now known
simply as the area between Givat Shaul and the settlement of Har Nof on the
western slopes of the mountain. The massacre of Palestinians at Deir Yassin is
one of the most significant
events in 20th-century Palestinian and Jewish history. This is not because of
its size or its brutality, but because it stands as the starkest early warning
of a calculated depopulation of over 400 Arab villages and cities and the
expulsion of over
700,000 Palestinian inhabitants to make room for survivors of the Holocaust and
other Jews from the rest of the world.
**
- Survivors' accounts...
The following survivor accounts of Deir Yassin appeared in the Dossier
179/110/17/GS and were labelled "Secret" and were the result of an investigation
about 4 days after the capture of the village. They were not made generally
available for 25 years so it is difficult to assume it was made for anti-Irgun
propaganda purposes at the time. If anything keeping it secret indicates the
British protecting the reputation of the Irgun. Journalists Larry Collins
(UPI/Newsweek) and Dominique Lapierre (Paris-Match) [authors of the celebrated
IS Paris Burning?] reviewed the contents of the reports for their bestseller "O!
Jerusalem! (1972)". They noted that the dossier "contain[ed] the interrogation
reports of the massacre's
surviviors by a team of British police officers together with corroborating
physical evidence obtained through medical examination of the survivors by a
doctor and nurse from Government Hospital in Qudüs." (p. 276) Direct statements
of survivors will
follow. In any event, CID Deputy Inspector General Catling concluded: "The
recording of statements is hampered also by the hysterical state of the women
who often break down many times whilst the statement is being recorded. There
is, however, no
doubt that many sexual atrocities were committed by the attaccking Jews. Many
young school girls were raped and later slaughtered. Old women were also
molested. One story is current concerning a case in which a young girl was
literally torn in two. Many infants were also butchered and killed. I also saw
one old woman . . . who had been severly beaten about the head with rifle butts.
Women had bracelets torn from their arms and rings from their fingers and parts
of some of the women's ears were severed in order to remove earrings." Survivor
statements from the reports are below. Collins and Lapierre refused to use later
Arab sources of atrocities so as to avoid the risk of "any Arab tendency to
magnify the events in retrospect." (p. 276) In conducting their own journalistic
investigation, however, the authors met with survivors and noted that "their
accounts in 1969 amply
confirmed the details of the [secret] British report." (P. 584)
- SURVIVOR RECOLLECTIONS FROM DEIR YASSIN
Mr. Fahimi Zeidan, 12,:"The Jews ordered all our family to line up against the
wall and they started shooting us. I was hit in the side, but most of us
children were saved because we hid behind our parents. The bullets hit my sister
Kadri [four] in the head, my sister Sameh [eight] in the cheek, my brother
Mohammed [seven] in the chest. But all the others with us against the wall were
killed: my father, my
mother, my grandfather and grandmother, my uncles and aunts and some of their
children."
Ms. Haleem Eid, 30: "A man [shot] a bullet into the neck of my sister Salhiyeh
who was nine months pregnant. Then he cut her stomach open with a butcher's
knife."
Ms. Naaneh Khalil, 16, saw a man: "take a kind of sword and slash my neighbor
Jamil Hish from head to toe then do the same thing on the steps to my house to
my cousin Fathi." Ms. Safiyeh Attiyah, 41: "I screamed but around me other
women were being raped too. Some of the men were so anxious to get our earrings
they ripped our ears to pull them off faster." Mr. Mohamed Jaber, student, "The
Jews [broke]
in, [drove] everybody outside, put them against the wall and shot them. One of
the women was carrying a three month old baby." Survivors' testimonies
Source: site. 3 eye witness testimonies of the Deir Yassin massacre as told to
journalist Elias Zananiri, previously published in 9.4.1997 in "Gulf News". On
the eve of April 9th 1948, armed members of Jewish underground groups attacked
the village, a strategic site towering Jerusalem from the West. After the fall
of Al Qastal a few days earlier and the killing of Palestinian guerrilla leader
Abdul Qader Al Husseini, Deir Yassin became the most important point on the road
to Qudüs.
- TESTIMONY I:M.A.R. Al Y.(Abu Mahmud) 70, currently lives in the Old
City of Qudüs, below are excerpts from his testimony: "I was in the village when
the
Jews attacked. I and my colleagues were on the western side of the village,
opposite Al Qastal. We had our guns on us. All villagers, mainly the youths,
were ready for whatever may happen after the Qastal battle was over. By 1630 on
Thursday 8
April 1948, Abdul Qader Husseini was killed as we were watching the battle from
a distance. After his death, we took precautionary measures in case anything
would happen: We guarded the village until 0230 the next morning when the Jews
started
entering the village with the use of spot and search lights looking for our
fighters. The Jews closed on the village amid exchanges of fire with us. Once
they entered the village, fighting became very heavy in the eastern side and
later it spread to other parts, to the quarry, to the village center until it
reached the western edge. The battle was on three fronts, east, south and north.
The Jews used all sorts of automatic weapons, tanks, missiles, cannons. They
used to enter houses and kill women and children indiscriminately. The youths in
the village fought bravely against them
and the fighting continued until it was around 1530 afternoon. We had no aid or
support from any party. They took about 40 prisoners from the village. But after
the battle was over, they took them to the quarry where they shot them dead and
threw their bodies in the quarry. After they removed their dead and wounded,
they took the prisoners and killed them. They took the elderly prisoners, women
and men and
took them out of the village, yet they killed the youths. They called on us to
surrender, to throw our weapons and to save ourselves. But we did not imagine
them breaking into the village. We expected the fighting to last one or two
hours,
after which they would retreat. But they continued the fighting(..). We had
trenches. The Jews filled one of those trenches with sand and rocks in order for
their tanks to cross. When we hit the tank, it started firing from its
machine-guns at our positions in the western edge of the village. (..) I
remember, from what my uncle's wife told me, that an uncle of mine, who was a
schoolmaster, had killed the commander of the invading gangs on the staircase of
one of the houses and later he disappeared for three days. Then, they found him
with his mother, originally from Latakia in Syria, they saw him with her, his
name was Ribhi Atiyyeh. She disguised him in women's clothes to make sure that
she could get him out of the village. They identified that he was a man, they
opened fire and killed him. That is what I heard from my
uncle's wife, but I did not see it happening before my eyes. After the June 1967
war, I met a Jewish eyewitness, Ibrahim Najjar (Israeli of Arab extraction), who
lived in Givat Shaul and whom I had known before 1948. He took me to visit the
village, as we arrived, I stood by the well and read some verses from the Koran.
He told me not to do that. "There isn't anybody here. Come with me and I will
show you were they were all buried." He took me to the quarry where he said:
"Here is where you
should read the Koran. Two Jews held a body of an Arab dead and threw it down in
the valley, some 20 meters in depth." That is were they threw bodies of the 14
martyrs who were killed there."
- TESTIMONY II: Um Mahmud, wife of Abu Mahmud, was 15 years old at the
time. "We were inside the house. We heard shooting outside. My mother woke us
up. We
knew the Jews had attacked us. My cousin and his sister came running and said
the Jews were already in our garden. In the meantime, fighting became heavier
and we heard lots of gunshots outside. A bomb was thrown at us and it exploded
close to where we were in the yard. (..) My sister- in-law did not want to
leave. She was frightened. The girl was two months old and the boy about three.
I took the two and my mother said we should go to my uncle's house. I saw how
Hilweh Zeidan was killed, along with her husband, her son, her brother and
Khumayyes. Hilweh Zeidan went out to collect the body of her husband. They shot
her and she fell over his body.(..) I also saw Hayat Bilbeissi, a nurse from
Qudüs serving in the village, as she was shot before the house door of Musa
Hassan. The daughter of Abu El Abed was shot dead as she held her niece, a baby.
The baby was shot too.(..) Whomever tried to run away was shot dead."
- TESTIMONY III: A.Y.J., Abu Yousef, also 70 years old. He lives in
Am'ari refugee camp near Ramallah. "(..)After the battle, the Jews took elderly
men and women and youths, including 4 of my cousins and a nephew. They took them
all. Women who had on them gold and money, were stripped of their gold. After
the Jews removed their dead and wounded, they took the men to the quarry and
sprayed them all
with bullets. (..) One woman had her son taken some 40 to 60 meters away from
where she and the rest of the women stood by, and shot him dead. Then they
brought
Jewish kids to throw stones at his body. They later poured kerosene on his body
and set it ablaze while the women watched from a distance. We later collected
ourselves, & checked who was missing. At Jaffa Gate in Qudüs, we were gathered
by the Arab Supreme Committee. Each of us was looking for a son, a daughter, a
sister or a mother. All men were busy fighting. Eyewitnesses were only women.
The elderly men were told to remove the dead, both Arabs and Jews. They took the
bodies
of the Jews and left the Arab bodies until they later were thrown in a well in
the village center."
**
- USraeli TV Series With Arab Views Sparks Debate By MARJORIE
MILLER, Times Staff Writer Qudüs--History is written by the victors, it is often
said, but in Israel even the winners do not agree on how to portray their past.
To mark the 50th anniversary of the Jewish state, Zionist Occupational Gang
Television is airing a 22-part documentary series that has enraged many Jews and
apparently enlightened others by telling the story of their country's founding
from the perspective of the vanquished as well as the victors. Side by side with
the country's heroes, the series gives voice for the first time on national
television to marginalized immigrants, Arab citizens who lost their land and
identity to the Jews, and Palestinians who engaged in terrorism to fight for the
return of their land. To some viewers, the series is a watershed event that
exposes Jews to a different, more critical view of their history. To others, it
is simply blasphemy. "Does Zionism really have to sit on the defendant's bench
in a series run by public broadcasting in USrael?" Communications Minister Limor
Livnat asked. "Do we have to produce films that . . . internalize the views of
the Arabs, who for 100 years have been claiming that we are
imperialists, colonialists and occupiers?" Livnat, who has called for the series
to be canceled, was so furious about the Sunday night shows that she has stopped
allowing
her son to watch them. Infrastructure Fascist Minister Ariel Sharon, a key
figure for most of USrael's 50 years, wrote a letter to Education and Culture
(is Fascism a
culture???!!!) Minister Yitzhak Levy complaining that the series "distorts the
history of our redemption, abandoning every moral basis for the establishment
and existence of the state of Zionist Occupatinal Gang" and urging that he not
use the programs in Jewish schools. And the host of the series, Yehoram Gaon,
quit halfway through production rather than appear on a segment that presents
the views of Palestinians who carried out terrorist attacks on Jewish civilians.
- We have coffe to drinnk now and the story continues after a short "pause
music"!...
- We do!..
**
- Dear listeners!.. Human being need your more active effort;
progressive help:!
Al-Awda, The Palestine Right to Return Coalition is the largest network of
grassroots activists dedicated to Palestinian human rights... To sign a letter
asking Intel Corporation to dis-invest from USrael go to:
http://al-awda.org/campaign/intel_letter.htm
To sign Al-Awda's petition to terminate U.S.A. aid to USrael go to:
http://al-awda.org/terminate_aid_petition.htm For
further information, please visit these sources, links, related sites and
discussion forums, there many authorities discuss on above subjects so-caled
the "Open Revenge" between E.U.'s democratical institutions and the
corrupta assassini Zionist lobbies: Antifa Solidarity
against Imperialism and its lapdog Zionism (Jewish Fascism):
http://tierra.ucsd.edu/archives/ats-l/2002.06/msg00008.html
http://indictsharon.net/case-crimes.shtml
http://tierra.ucsd.edu/archives/ats-l/2002.06/msg00008.html
http://www.antifa.be/link.html
http://www.leninist-current.revolte.net/cgi-bin/ilc/news/viewnews.cgi?category=all&id=992177048
Minority Rights Group of E.U.: http://www.minorityrights.org/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/eIntifada/messages
http://www.merip.org/ http://www.badil.org
http://www.multimania.com/stopfascism/links.php
http://www.PalestineCenter.org
http://www.multimania.com/nthines/action.html
http://www.abunimah.org
http://www.adc.org/adc http://www.ozgurpolitika.org/
http://www.tari.org http://www.alternative-info.nu
http://serendipity.magnet.ch/waco.html
http://www.Kurdinfo.com/
http://www.f25.parsimony.net/forum62148/messages/1376.htm
http://www.anti-fascism.org/sidebar.html
http://www.IntifadaOnline.com/
http://www.amnesty.org/news/1996/51504996.htm
http://www.institutkurde.org/
Los Angeles Socialist Party-USA:
http://www.lalabor.org/wwwboard/messages/276.shtml
http://www.nadir.org/nadir/ http://www.che-lives.com/
http://liberate-palestine.hypermart.net/
http://www.medyatv.com/english/index.htm
http://www.labournet.co.uk/community/forum/messages/224.html
Campaign against Arm Tradew http://www.caat.org.uk/
http://burn.ucsd.edu/archives/kurd-l/1999.03/msg00005.html
http://euforthepeople.tripod.com/id2.htm
http://www.webcom.com/maxang/ASAN_BBS/Read/11.html
http://www.united.non-profit.nl/ http://www.amnesty-eu.org/
http://www.WSWS.org
Pravda Moscow: http://forum.msk.ru/guestbook.html
Solidarity Exile Committees / Revolutionary Immigrants in the E.U.
http://www.resistances.be/
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/vietnam/trenches/mylai.html
http://www.apk2000.dk/netavisen/artikler/globalt/2002-na0131-israelsk_soldaterprotest.htm
http://www.akp.no/utvalg/iu/palestina/index.html
World Socialist Forum:
http://users.cgiforme.com/socialistica/messages/297.html **
- I have a quote, related with above subject: "Hasta la victoria
siempre/ El
pueblo unido jamas sera vencido" - Who said it?
-Revolutionary Commandante Ernesto Che GUEVARA LYNCH de la SERNA
**
- Civilization should solv its vow!... Mankind must STOP the
ZIONISM (JEWISH FASCISM) and it's supporter IMPERIALISM!
- Yes!.. We must end USraeli Maffia Apartheid!
- Remember; Human-being's Honorable Commandante Ernesto CHE GUEVARA says: "If
you tremble with indignation at every injustice then you are a comrade of mine!"
**
- The relatives of the victims would like to explain the special
thanks to the Organizations and private info-sources like:: www.Antifa.de/Bund
der Antifaschisten (League of Anti-Fascists), IG Metall (the metal workers'
union), Linksruck (German organisation of the International Socialist Tendency),
www.Antifa-Hamm.De/ , www.ENAR-EU.org/ , www.ECRI.org/ www.ICARE.org/ ,
www.Kurdinfo.com, http://www.unitedagainstracism.org/,
http://www.xs4all.nl/~united/ die Autonomists and various Peace&Freedom
Groups... anti-Fascist Forum of Comrades Sylvio BOHR, Petra GOLM, Aachener
Nachrichten: http://www.an-online.de/ , dear Comrade Ralf STUNTEBECK;
RStuntebeck@hotmail.com, aaponel@t-online.de, ach@mpe.mbg.de, ansar@ansary.de,
bahattin50@gmx.de, dzloj@hotmail.com, feedback@free-market.net,
gymwolbe@muenster.de, hagalil@hagalil.com, info@mission.nu, Klaus@mcbone.net,
maccabi@crossnet.se, mhonarc@pobox.com, Comrade Victoria WÄRMLER:
safir@alfaskop.net, Salim@huuu.de, sosyalizm@cuba.com,
strutype@hrz.uni-kassel.de, vera@enar-eu.org, vivache@cuba.com,
zfa10154@mailszrz.zrz.TU-Berlin.De, petra@golmisfamilienpage.de, György Konrád,
gymwolbe@muenster.de, Comrades David Witzthum und Werner's K-Mans Laberforum:
www.f22.parsimony.net/forum44187/wwwforum.cgi?formular , Grüne Jugend:
http://www.forumromanum.de/member/forum/forum.cgi?USER=user_75300
zfa10154@mailszrz.zrz.TU-Berlin.De, Vera EGENBERGER, Jungle World- Leftist
Union and periodical of Germany, ach@mpe.mbg.de, mhonarc@pobox.com, AntifaNet
of Mika C.H.: http://www.guweb.com/cgi-bin/guestbook?id=MIKA, Ground Zero Forums
of Marxist Comrade ÖGYR: http://www.myphorum.de/forum/list.php?f=3668 ,
International Marx-Forum of dear Comrade BUCHENBERG:
**
- Every year, 17th February is the Massacre of Berlin - Memorial
Day Every year, 9/10th April is the True-Holocaust of Deir
Yassin - Memorial Day
....and keep the memory alive April 18, Qana Massacre Remembrance Day!…
Every year, 13th May is the True-Holocaust of Al Mirr Town Memorial Day
Every year, 16th, 17th, 18th September is the True-Holocaust of Sabra Shatila -
Memorial Days
....and keep the memory alive on 28th September; Memorialday of the Estonia
Ferry Massacre in Baltic Sea
....and keep the memory alive 4th October; Memorialday of the El Al Boeing
747 Massacre in Amsterdam
....and Memorial Day of the True-Holocaust of Kufr Qassem is October 29
....and...and...and... mankind's suffer should be end, also means all the kind
of the massacres should be end!
A list on the Palestinians terrorized by massacres (Eine kurze Liste von den
Menschenrechtezentrumen bzw PalestineHistoryCenter):
http://www.palestinehistory.com/massacre.htm
-here is a short list-:
- Place / Village Date Crime made by Number of Killed!..
- Read your list, please!
The massacre of Baldat al-Shaikh on January 31, 1947 Jewish armed
gangs 60 slaughtered
The massacre of Mansurat al Khayt on 18 January, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Sa'Sa'a Village on February 14, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Qisarya on February 15, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Wadi 'Ara on February 27, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Abu Kabeer Village on March 31, 1948 Haganah Jewish armed gangs
NA
The massacre of Dair Yasin on April 9/10, 1948 Irgun Jewish armed gangs 254
The massacre of Nasir ad Din, Khirbet on April 12, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Hawsha on April 15, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Al Wa'ra Al-Sawda on April 18, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Haifa on April 21, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Husayniyya on April 21, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Ayn az Zaytun on May 02, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Bayt Daras on May 11, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Burayr 12 May, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Khubbayza on May 12, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Abu Shusha on May 14, 1948 Jofati Jewish armed gangs 50
The massacre of Al Kibri on May 21, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Al Tantoura on May 21, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Qazaza on July 09, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Lydda on July 10, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of El-Led on July 11, 1948 Mohsa Dayan Jewish armed gangs 426
The massacre of Al Tira on July 16, 1948 Jews Groups NA
The massacre of The massacre of Ijzim on July 24, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Beer Sheba on October 21, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Isdud on October 28, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Al Dawayima on October 29, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Jish on October 29, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Majd al Kurum on October 29, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Safsaf on October 29, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Sa'sa on October 30, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Saliha on October 30, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Arab al Samniyya on October 30, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Aylabon Village on October 30, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Al-Ba'na / Dair Al-Asad on October 31, 1948 Jewish armed gangs
NA The massacre of Al Khisas on December 18, 1948 Jewish armed gangs NA
The massacre of Qibya on October 14, 1953 Jewish armed gangs 67
The massacre of Qalqalya Village on October 10, 1956 Jewish armed gangs 70
The massacre of Kufr Qasim on October 29, 1956 Jewish armed gangs 49
The massacre of Khan Younes on November 03, 1956 Jewish armed gangs 250
The massacre of Khan Younes on November 12, 1956 Jewish armed gangs 275
Sabra & Shatila Camps on September 16/17/18, 1982 Kata'ib Jewish armed gangs
3500
The massacre of Oyon Qara on May 20, 1990 Jewish armed gangs 7
The massacre of Al-Aqsa Mosque on October 08, 1990 Jewish Army 23
The massacre on Palestinian Folk in different places of occupied Middle East in
year 1991 and 1992 Jewish Fascists killed (totally, plus) a lot of human;
United Nations allowed of to declare counts... U. N. concentrated to massacre
Iraqian people... The massacre on Palestinian Folk in different places of
occupied Middle East in year 1993 Jewish Fascists killed 187 human The
massacre of Ebrahime Mosque on February 25, 1994 Baruch Goldstein 53 The
massacre on passsengers of M/S Estonia ferry on September 28, 1994; Radioactive
Weapon smugglers to the Western allied who always collaborate with Swedish
Jewish lobbies, on Baltic Sea, massacred and prevented all kind of
investigations on the bodies of 852
The massacre on Palestinian Folk in different places of occupied Middle East in
year 1994 Jewish Fascists killed (totally, plus) 144 human The massacre on
Palestinian Folk in different places of occupied Middle East in year 1995 Jewish
Fascists killed (totally, plus) 48 human The massacre of Qana on April
18, 1996 Jewish armed gangs 109 The massacre on Palestinian Folk in
different places of occupied Middle East in year 1997 Jewish Fascists killed
(totally, plus) 20 human The massacre on Palestinian Folk in different
places of occupied Middle East in year 1998 Jewish Fascists killed (totally,
plus) 27 human The massacre on Palestinian Folk in different places of
occupied Middle East in year 1999 Jewish Fascists killed (totally, plus) 8 human
The massacre on Palestinian Folk in different places of occupied Middle East in
year 2000 Jewish Fascists killed (totally, plus) 292 human The Massacre of
Khan Younis on November 22, 2001 Jewish armed gangs, by toys- (mouse traps
/mines) 5 Children
The Massacre of Rafah on February 4, 2002-Jewish armed gangs, Assassination , 5
youngs The Massacre of Balata Camp (Nablus) and Nur Al-Shamps (Jenin) on Feb.
28-March 1, 2002-Jewish armed gangs, 2 little children, 28 youngs The
massacre of Jenin and Nablus-Bloody Monday on March 4, 2002, Jewish armed gangs
30 The massacre of Tullkarem (West Bank), Gaza and Betlehem-Bloody
Friday on March 8, 2002, Jewish armed gangs 49 The massacre of whole
Palestine- Bloody Easter 30 March -3 April 2002, Jewish Army 200
The massacre of Jenin- Ongoing Bloody Easter Slaughter- on April 4, 2002,
Jewish armed gangs 32
The massacre of Nablus- Human Hunting Weekend; on April 7-8, 2002, Jewish armed
gangs 36
The massacre of Jenin- Ongoing Slaughting; on April 9, 2002, Jewish armed
gangs massacred over 500 human
The massacre of Jenin- Ongoing Slaughting; on April 14, 2002, Jewish armed
gangs massacred over 70 human The massacre of Hebron/Palestinian Police
HQ/ on June 28, 2002,Jewish armed gangs 15 The massacre of Gaza Strip on July
22, 2002; Jewish armed gangs 17
The massacre of Gaza Gazze on July 25, 2002; Jewish armed gangs 15
The massacre of Gaza Strip Strip on September 23, 2002; Jewish armed gangs
10 The massacre of Al Amal in Gaza Strip Strip on October 07, 2002; Jewish
armed gangs at least killed 17 human...
The massacre of Gaza Strip Strip on October 13, 2002; Jewish armed gangs
6...
The massacre of Rafah on October 17, 2002; Jewish armed gangs 8
The massacre of Al-Bureij refugee Camp in Gaza on December 6, 2002; Jewish
armed gangs 10
The massacre of Carni border in Gaza on December 11, 2002; Jewish armed gangs
5
The massacre of West Bank towns on December 26, 2002; Jewish Armed gangs 9
The massacre of Maghazi refugee camp (in Gaza) on January 7, 2003; Jewish Armed
gangs 6
The massacre of Maghazi refugee camp (in Gaza) on January 8, 2003; Jewish Armed
gangs 5
The massacre of Gaza on January 24, 2003; Jewish Armed gangs 3 The
massacre of Gaza on January 26, 2003; Jewish Armed gangs 13
The massacre of West Bank in Gaza on January 28, 2003; Jewish Armed gangs 7
The massacre of West Bank in Gaza on 11 february 2004; Jewish Armed gangs
massacred 15 human
....and much more as ongoing TRUE HOLOCAUST...
- Shame on the double faced civilization!
- Not at all!.. There are true umanists, even true Christians who protested such
massacres for instance Karl Gustav HAMMAR&Torbjörn JOHANSEN&John S. TORELL; "The
True Christians always struggle against the Zionism, also Jewish Fascism"...

**

- What are you thinking on these incredible scenes? - We must know that
our weakness is Imperialism's strength, I understand here again... - I agree
with you, Comrade Jonas Hållén! - You are welcome, Comrade Lars Törnman!
**
- I think, democracy should work better!.. Criminals and collaborators should be
arrested!
- Should we arrest the criminals?!. Don't make me laugh! - Well, I see the
double roles and false rules of the juridical instruments... What a shame we
been forced to label it "democracy"... How thus majority of people, thus living
creators, stinky mass could be so incredible nonsense blind meanwhile all the
enormous fraudulent process?!.. Unbelieveable!... This is a glaring
injustice!.. I wonder, what goes wrong by the juridical instruments... How can I
say?! It is very strange!... You now, if you see all these incredible cases,
thick-headed attitudes... - How? Do you explain? What is concrete that
you remember? - Yes, I remember that David Janzon, a redactional worker of
Radio Islam, was sentenced to 4 months' imprisonment in October 1992, for the
station's agitation "against an ethnic group". Are the provocators of Capitalist
Fascist lobbies are really a ethnical group?! - There is so specially
groups? Okay, Jews!... It's the overclass group, nobody can imitate such
shurks... - But when you been oppressed so your accusation can only
be refuseed... The shurks are the masters 'cause they experinced a lot of cruel
methodes since many years... You can only suffer like many freedom fighters...
- Concrete cases? - Very much!... The judges of system who play dirty
rolls... It is extra incredible on Swedish justice-scenes that many foolish
judges been corrupted by Jewish authorities and they play extra horrible rolls
as pycho-proff doctor magister at policlinics... I can not meet all the judges
nor observate all the cases but I met many high-staff at Golf Club Tenerrife,
they explained... Shameful!... I can not explain here what they say on the
corrpted colleges, so awfully shameful... ... Court material look likes
simetrical sences, reasons are too similarly... Many papers of court been
published by the Bonniers, Nordstedt... Same mechanism publish as basic Zionist
propagand material, too... EU-membership... After 1995 impressed it by the
democratical authorities of other countries? - Unfortunately, it's in all
frauds, much more dirty now... If any true jurist goes to United Nations related
commissions or the independent justice authorities, so we shall most interesting
scandals... - What kind of scandals? - For instance Osmo
Vallo&Tony Mutka and other members of the "assassination on the so called
Resande Folket" cases... Märta Pettersson and others who murdered by the
"imported criminals" like Bengalian Zionist Mafia moblized in the EU; similarly
recruitment cases... Remember; what the relatiives of Tony Deogan, Dagmar
Hagelin, Anders Gustavsson demand... - Don't make me worry with
examles, don't list please much more!.. - It's not me who create the
official shame lists!.. Did you hear Osmo Vallo's two brothers and all other
relatives are arrested, too... The victims and witness been arrested instead of
murderers... Otherway, many freedom fighters forced to be jobless and living
under minimal standards... Most famous concret case is Stefan Dimiter
Tcholakov who labelled as "laborious" and Work Rights fighters Jimmie
Östergren, delegated adviser (former grafiker) Bengt Pettersson and Ahmed Rami,
because of these bravehearts criticized the thieves by the Capitalist Jewish
lobbies... Laponians who fight for own mark and minority rights, therefore
prisoned their representative character Olof T. Johansson, the true Socialists
like Bengt Frejd, Sara Lidman, Staffan Ehnebom, so-called the "Free Speech
Fighters", anti-Capitalist demonstranter like Jan Hatto, Sten Arne-Zerpe,
Dietlieb Felderer, movements who struggle against the weapon-handlers like
Henrik Westander (before professur-chair gift) and by his side likely flexible
Calle Höglund, anti-Imperialists Hannes Westberg, Herman Schmid, journalists
Staffan Beckman, Stefan Hjertén, free-mind intellectuals like Rainer Holm, Linus
Brohult, honoured priest K. G. Hammar and hundreds of the anti-Imperialists who
been registrated by the lobbies... - What is common with them? -
Also! When a Fascist accuse them so judges punish the reviewers, immediately...
But when the oppressed people leave any accusation acceptance, can easily be
refuseed ... The requests of them almost been absolutely refuseed... Read two
different cover of assassinations for example one victim called Daniel
WRETSTRÖM and second one Tony DEOGAN; so you'll be shocked if you discover many
incredible freakness, parallel points; for instance how the prosecutors and
judges corrupted by financial lobbies and how all the gang members released, how
the evidences disappointed, witnesses forced to go in silence or they
disapponted, too...
- Why the DN, Expressen and other big papers awoid of to publich these true
stories?.. They awoid of to show the real discrimination?! Schindler's List was
only a filmatic illusion, actually the true boss never gave a chance peace in
communities... You know, Bonniers, Wallenberg, Bilderberg-gangs and "Bulldogs"
drive the Swindlers' lists, means all the honoured intellectuals been
registrated on their computers... Therefore Stockholm-Canberra changed to be
second plot area of Jew York-Tel Aviv's armed Mafia... - Yes, it's!.. But
what a lucky I have been warned before!. - The authorities are blind on
such actions.. Why? - Because every big shurk drives by the big lobbies in
this big SvekJa zionized Kingdom... - ?! - How can we could
informed and know the truth!?... - I can't reply all in two minutes?!
- Well!... I understand better... It's a modernised version of enormous
hypocrisy... And I understand why the worlkd couldn't react when Jews slaughed
people in Sabra, Shatila, Jenin... Everybody watched on tv meanwhile druck
Coca-Cola, chips, bonbons... - Like the film-druged idiots?.. - No,
Sir!... We have incredible reactions and collaborated feelings too, remember,
we all cried when we watched on the Swindler's list, whole lies master-piece on
scenes... - Shame on double-moral masters!.. Where are the all good peoples
now?! - No way to Pessimism, please!.. Well, I see a positive case here on
the Scandinavian Jewish DN, Expressen, Menorah pages; Maximum sentence for the
desecration of cemeteries - an outrage which traditionally targeted Jewish
cemeteries - was raised from 6 months' imprisonment to 2 years. Yes, the
prisonment period raised in 1993, Spring. Then... - It should not calls for
case; it's provocation... There is no any single case in SvekJa, means nobody
sentenced, nobody improsined for desecrations.. - Maximum sentence will be
2 years! Isn't good? - I want not talk on the sentences good or not
good... But I'm coming from Skaane and I witnessed who targeted the
cemeteries... - Who? - Jews!... I saw them... They were there
and porovoced very succesful so they manipulated sitation... Therefore there is
no prisoner after this pharagraph ' cause they aimed change the rules...
- I remember a similarly case, my mother witnessed and told us about the foxy
Jews who played theatre at the street on 30 November in Germania... It was
before WW III, Jewish fanatics crashed own glass and won enormous generous
compensation by the reasurance firms... But their media manipulated the world by
the help of american Imperialism so all the analphabets crying on every 30
September worldwide, every year like a crying festival, meantime the Zionist
boss' laughing behind the windows...
**
- This is not the Cold War but a form of ongoing Cold War, what drives now by
the lobbies... This area demands the prejudiced scientists... - Why the
oppressed folk don't protest or discuss these problems... - Ever and never!
This is not the results of the football matches... People need knowledge on
biological developments... - Biological? Bur the lobotomies and
sterilization methodes were only in last century?! - System have now most
avanced methodes for instance isolation, registration and systematically
injustice... Only two tousand youngs become suicide in SvekJa Kingdom, two times
been a short news.. - Youngs?... But adults? - They never
counts by half officially pools.... Animal lover bourgeoisie have
sex-partner-dogs, counts for identification and health rights, but not the
discriminated persons... Never mind!... - There aren't really a single
one modernized democratical institution?
- ?! ** - I wonder why many
immigrants sets to work without language courses meanwhile many others been
discriminated because of their language is not "wonderful, brilliant"?.. - I
met many people too... For example after Warszawa pakt's collapse fleed
manybiologs to the occupied Middle East, Australia, SvekJa and specially the
laboratory workers sets on the jobs without any oppression... - Did you
found any explain about this subject?.. - Not directly... I met a family
in SvekJa, who calls for BOLDTs, escaped from Baltics by the way of so-called
"official Al Capone Raoul Wallenberg" Co's false Finnish pass and corrupted
authorities in Kingdom by the way of Jewish lobbies... A cunning mature, drives
"Invandrar Publications"... She explained that all these scientists had already
one or two international languages what been respected... - She lies!.. I
know a writer, know six or seven language but SvekJa system set him too the
cleaner-catch boy courses... - Yes; I understand... Jolin replied this
case too; "maybe the writer criticised the oligarchical targets..." -
And she publish these subjects on the Invandrar Tidningen? Bravo!... - You
will be chocked; she help to the lobbies to registrate opposite... - Was she
biology-worker in Baltics... - No!... But system need such families to
follow the people and therefore she didn't go to the claenar courses and nor any
language course although her vocabulary is worst when I compare with other
immigrants... Nowadays fixed this family a credit possbility by the lobbies and
Swedish American authorities,looks like a support to publish weekly propagand
bulletin, called "Sesam"... - Is it a propagand bulletin which the
redacteurs in Jew York recommended? - Yes!... Worst and most dangerous in the
world... - Do you explain; what you discovered by Sesam or chief Jolin
Boldt or Jusek/jurists' judadominated syndical sect media runs by Göran Boldt
Co. although this zionist gang never had a single one scientist in the
family!.. - Yes, it's!.. But such chiefs are clever to use the regularly
credits of system... I am an ordinary people and regularly reading all the
issues of Sesam/Jusek falsification magazines and look at on these pages, what
these gangsters provoce: "Immigrants always have problems.. They must complete
their education and integrate to the democratical values..." Very
provocative...It means if you never been accepted as true citizen so you must
think that your education is low, complete it... If immigrated person is
non-judaic originated must complete cources to be disher, even if man is
professor.. But other immigrant who came from Warszawa and presented himself as
academician, accepted to be professor wit´hout a true diplom.. If you criticize
this dirty deal, riskable to be labelled that you collapsed on integration...
- A kind of tregistrated psycho? - Definitely!.. This is a nonsense
market... The masters of this neo-liberal "smiling fascist process" show no
pardon... Since many years the Swedish immigrant publications run by the fascist
zionist readcteurs, collaborators and inseminate false imagination... This is a
insemination what the Zionist Fascists do against thesecond class people in Tel
Aviv... In SvekJa Kingdom, by this shurk-coup drivessame project... Look at
these pages, even the Laponians counts like the second class people and never
discuss serious their minority rights, work rights by the industrial
investigations of Kingdom... They handled often like the Gypsies,more worst;
they handled like prisoners on its own marks like the Palestinians who prisoned
his own haoses there in the occupied Middle East... Do you discussuor rights
here on Immigrant pages? Never... Boldt have credit by Spaarbank and Nordea's
Jew chiefs... Why? Because, Boldt-gang is the best flexible which uses like a
condom against Human Rights...According of these shurks there is no any Zionist
Occupational Gang in the world, but Palestinians been counted as problematics...
Palestinians described like the immigrants there, what the oppressed people
behandles here in SvekJa Kingdom... Boldt and her lap-dogs manipulate the
questions of immigrants and never answer thequestions although there is two
pages for responses... - I know a Jewish paper in USA, redacteur send
letters himself and replies later instead of the true readers... -
Similar tactic!... What Big Brother do, Swedish hypocrites just imitate it...
Not only this fetty imbecill's Sesam, all other creit-addicted papers
administrations making copies of ordinary people's letters... mostly all these
half-officially "Invandrar" publication industry "brain washing instruments on
the immigrants" running on this line... what thelobbies, so-called
"registrationsnamnden" and the collaborators by the Swedish ministries like
much and therefore pumping money.. - Now I have a little question; is
Boldt-gangs are Jewish originated... - More dangereous... Members, so-called
"edsvurna" by the Zionist lobbies!...But how you guess about the origins of
these shurks?! - I am not so stupid although I like sometimes discuss
football, too... - ...and maybe a private question, too!.. How you can be so
close to Jolin!... - She like small and younger Africans like a tradition by
the bourgeoisise fetties nowadays and it was plus point when she discovered I am
from Ethiopia... - More question? - No more, 'cause I have already
all the answers on this area specially experiences by such kind of chiefs who
need my massage... This is biology, too; bio-physique... - But why all these
lobbies hate Rainer Holm?.. Rainer is not immigrant.. - He registrated
because of the critics againt the system and projects.. - What kind of
system? Whose projects, whose rules? - Kidding? - ?!
**
- Different faces but same play on the dirty scenes!..
- That is right!.. Unfortunately, a crow goes but another crow comes...
Betrayers love eacht other and they always have supporters by the financial
lobbies... For example Sparbank, Nordea, Associates thieves Co,
Citibank/CitiGroup, even CSN and other similarly ziondominated betrayers,
lean-mousetraps...
- More dangerous than all other classical mafia examples... Because all these
liberalized instruments have both legal and illegal leagues, different faces on
the different scenes...
- Flexible fascism!..
**
- Not only this case and such victims, all the anti-imperialists
are the potentially criminals, according to the registrators of lobbies...They
are suspicious in all cases, on all the connections... - They are
suspicious perhaps only on our duties... Otherways I met an interesting gay, he
talks perfect Persian like a true Iranian citizen, practiced around of Gulf...
- Dehdari? Kamali? Tagawi? - Bijan Fahimi!.. This gay, Persian Zionist
case enough to explain any connections between many Swedes... Such "imported
instruments" help to compare with the opprtunities and opportunists for example
these persons systematically been discrimined: Staffan Ehnebom, Jimmie
Östergren, Ahmed Rami, Ernst Rainer Holm (regime critic worker, disappeared in
Gaevle city just after May Day 2003), Henrik Westander, Osmo Vallo (murdered by
police torture in Malmuu-city) and his prisoned brothers, Tony Deogan and
Anders Gustavsson (both murdered by system supported violence leagues and
prosecutors didn't accuse anyone because these poor boys weren't from
bourgeoisie cathegories in the community and both criticized sytem by any
articles before), Bengt Frejd, Olof T. Johansson, Sara Lidman, Calle Höglund,
Belay Mekkonen, Hannes Westberg, Linus Brohult, Sven Wollter, Gunnar Thorell,
Murat Yildiz, Bodil Margret Lindqvist, Staffan Beckman, Ísmet Celepli, Juan
Fonseca (when he had not so intensive interesse on money), Ditlieb Felderer,
Stefan Hjertén, Stefan Dimiter Tcholakov...
- Is it dangerous to have same name? - Very riskable!.. Nephew Stefan
forced to be psyhico because one of the his relatives in Balkan were the
anti-Zionist guerilla leaders... One of the guerillas had same name forced for
Independent Makedonia and jailed by false accusations of two Jewish judges from
Bulgaria just after 1945. Guerilla leader had no possibility to defence himself,
Jewish judges published only the false accusations, including fictive movements
who leaned weapon from Germania under WW II. Although many corrupted judges and
prosecutors were the traitors, this power manipulated history; nobody succeed to
choose what is right what is wrong by medial campaigns... Guerillas, like
"Uncle Tcholakov" sentenced without any minimal evidence.. He died there... We
see another Tcholakov in Scandinavia, immgrated, but pursued and falled in
incredible troubles... This nephew Tcholakov, "immigrated heimatlos Stefan"
borned in 1944 as Dimiter, become a brilliant academical carrier in Sofia
university and fleed to SvekJa Kingdom, completed 180 university points but
prevented from work life, pursued, isolated, discriminated by the the Jewish
registrators, lobbies, specially the collaborators of Clas Lilja
"genetical-researcher Zionist clan" members in the Waexsjö city university...
I can add other figures, too; for example the victims from West Front like
Robert Malecki as true Vietnam deserter and as second category; Jan Myrdal,
Teddy John Frank, Frank Baude, Peter Bratt, (his cell-shared-comrade Jan
Guillou pissed off from lists because he is a multi-milliarder rich, reached to
be droged creatur at last), Dagmar Hagelin (been pursued by Zionist lobbies who
collaborated with dictators of South America and murdered there by fascist
military of Astiz.. Dagmar murdered because her father listed as Marxist and
very interesting now, his family affected by persecution, all the relatives
troubled similarly case and systematically hunting by the Zionist lobbies),
Torsten Leander (only this one pursued person compensed as symbolic maneouver),
Work Rights Fighters Jimmie Östergren from H

That cut 'n paste job was from this site:

http://forum.asiaco.com/cgi-bin/forum/forum.cgi?c=msg&fid=belief&mid=5

http://killdevilhill.com/z/yphilo1d/Marx,Karlhall/cas/264.html

Complete waste of space from someone/thing without intellect

Rosalinda

Thank you for the post, I would have preferred a link to the pages rather than your volume.

This was inconsiderate to everyone.

I could produce a similar lost in detailing the manchivillian machinations of the colonials and others towards the Jewish people.

I won't as we are on opposite sides of a divide.
On your side is the destruction of the Jewish state and the probable killing of every Jew who can't escape.

On mine,
Is a middle east where every nation is a democracy with the people free to express their views peacefully without losing their lives of loved ones.

This would include Israel.

best
Mike NZ