Melanie, this is an excellent and brave article and quite accurate. The type of article you write best.

It is quite right to keep the rising tide of anti-semitism in Western Europe as a high-profile issue on your website lest we become enured to it and its effects.

Some of the current criticisms (not all) of Israel do provide a trojan horse for some very unpleasant anti-semitism that is just under the surface.

I live in Brussels and there have been numerous attacks on synagogues throughout Belgium (partic in Brussels and Antwerp), and on obvious targets: Jewish schools, Jewish school children on the way to school, the Chief Rabbi of Brussels was himself attacked in the street a few months ago.

A Jewish friend of mine who owns/manages a restaurant in central Brussels recently asked a young couple who were sitting on her window sill outside her restauant to move. The young man burst into the restaurant and held her by her neck against the wall while shouting 'Dirty Jew' in her face.

There is a huge Muslim population in central Brussels (the most popular name given to new babies in the Brussels central district last year was, according to official statistics, Mohammed).

There is a real problem with a minority of 2nd generation immigrant young people (many of whom are unemployed and not well educated) from north Africa from this Muslim community. This is one of the main components in many of these attacks. Their parents - and official Muslim representative organisations - are often horrified at what is happening and many have publicly called for an end to such behaviour.

However, simultaneously, some of the mosques continue to pour out their anti-semitic hatred.

Sometimes it is hard-line Islam that 'legitimises' this type of behaviour. Sometimes, it appears that it is a case of pure yobbishness (like the 'paki/queer-bashing' activities that used to be quite prevalent in parts of the UK) where young men gain sadistic pleasure from bullying groups of victims.

This is a significant problem in Belgium, France and the Netherlands.

In addition, not only Jews are vilified in the outpourings of some of the more extreme Benelux Imans: but also gays are called 'filthy pigs' quite frequently and - surprise, surprise, - there has been a substantial increase in the number of physical attacks on gays in cities such as Brussels, Antwerp, Amsterdam in the last couple of years by 2nd generation north African youths(this was partly what motivated Pim Fortijn to make his comments on Islam).

It is quite appalling and it is very difficult to know how to deal with it: the police can't/won't deal with it effectively; some left-wing and Muslim groups say it is exagerated and islamaphobic...at the same time, there is real tension in Antwerp where there large Jewish and Muslim communities live side by side - and where, the extreme-right Vlaams Blok (they took 37% in the last municipal elections) is ready to exploit the real worries and concerns of ordinary people who are despondent and despair of the inability of the politicians in established parties to deal effectively with issues - particularly law and order.

So, the situation in some parts of Europe is worse than currently in the UK. However, all the ingedients are in place in the UK for a similar situation to develop in the UK.

It is shameful that elected politicians are so weak in tackling these problems with honestly and guts.

Sure David, but Belgium is an awful place. Don't you have the Hizbollah man in Antwerp pushing for Arabic to be the third language in Belgium's wonderful socialist paradise ?

Belgium is a state run by crackpots, and lives on the European taxpayer. Why Britain ever created it as a buffer between France and the Low Countries beats me......still it is now a vortex of scheming tribalism.

It is cerainly the most corrupt state in Europe, issuing visas to gangsters in the Ukraine, and riddled with Mafia connections in the Socialist Party with hit men in Liege, and of course the scandalous Marc Dutroux........why anyone would want to live in Europe's Subsidy Junkie Land beats me.

Belgium must be the most awful hole in the entire European Union

"It turned the spotlight on Abou Jahjah, a Lebanese-born extremist and former Hizbollah fighter now known as the Malcolm X of Belgium's ethnic politics, claiming that he and his followers seized on the incident to inflame racial hatred.

Guy Verhofstadt, the prime minister, told parliament he was condidering a ban on Abou Jahjah's Antwerp-based ultra-radical group, the Arab-European League, for inciting violence, issuing threats and disturbing public order.

But Abou Jahjah said he was being demonised by manipulators in the Belgian government and the "Zionist lobby"."

"The release on bail on Friday [28 June] of diamond broker Sanjivan Ruprah
has put a question back on the agenda: What do we really know about the links
between diamonds and funding of Islamic extremism?

The bail paid by Sanjivan Ruprah was only 7,500 euros, a trivial sum for a
man who has made the African mining industry his profession, and who has nothing
to keep him in Belgium. This Friday, upon a decision of the Brussels Chamber
of Indictments, the man whom the United Nations described as one of the keys to
the supply of weapons to the regime of Charles Taylor, the man whom the FBI
hoped would testify for the prosecution concerning the ties between Russian arms
trafficker Viktor Bout and al-Qa'ida, the man who admitted lending Viktor Bout
his Liberian office, one of his mobile telephones, and certain bank accounts, in
short, the man whose name has gone around the world since his arrest in Uccle
[Brussels] in early February is today a free man. Indicted but free"

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/osint/message/21292

In the 1970's when Arafat and his PLO were going wild in Lebanon with attacks against the Christain population the Christian Church was quiet. All the deaths and not a word against it. The most amazing thing has been the support that the Greek Orthodox priests have given Arafat so it comes as no surprise that there is no outcry against the latest "pogroms" against Christian communities around the world. Yes, they are lousy shepards!
As for Bush, Blair and all the other politicians; well one could put it down to sheer stupidity or be cynical and claim that they are on the take in some form or other. What is even worse is that they are spineless to counter the lies and cannards used in this war.
The most blatant fact is that their PC pandering is to an agressor who is always Humiliated , but knows no HUMILITY!

Yes, Barry...I guess we should not be surprised by the less-than-interested and less-than-compassionate responses of various Christian churches to these events. I mean, they do not always act with compassion towards their own followers, do they?

"various Christian churches to these events. I mean, they do not always act with compassion towards their own followers"

Yes, they are mainly apostate, and have become Rotary Clubs raising funds for 'good causes' and engaged in secularist political correctness rather than upholding Calvinism.

Not quite, Red Baron. I was thinking more of

1) the Catholic Church's denial of the link between sexual intercourse and HIV transmission and its consequent vigorous opposition to programmes for condom use in the Third World. Or

2) the incarceration of thousands of young women in Ireland in the Magdalene institutions because they became pregnant outside wedlock or even just flirted.

Number 1 is current. Number 2 took place in Ireland until the 1970s and there are similar institutions now in parts of the Third World.

Political correctness..? pleaase! If only...it would at least be an improvement..

You mentioned "Christian Churches" now you restrict your complaint to Irish Catholicism......which is not "various Christian churches".....and you made reference to Barry and his comments about Muslim terror against Christians.......now you refer to Irish Catholics........try to be more precise.......the Christian Church should become more fundamentalist and Calvinist.......it is too secular and lax

Nope, Red Baron...don't try to give me lessons in the presentation of arguments - particularly given your first post on this thread...full of wild generalisations, over-simplications and a list of bumper-sticker-worthy assertions (no, I don't mean that as a compliment, in case you don't get it)...

But David you need an education in such matters, you malign Christian Churches then proceed to vilify Catholicism.

You bemoan Belgium but fail to recognise that Belgium is a false creation and a bogus state with no common basis. It is the fragile coexistence of Francophone and Flemish in a society riven with historic hatreds, and is not a viable entity.

The Arabic component will merely serve to highlight the infeasibility of maintaining such an artificial state as Belgium. Until it is dissolved into the European Union and ceases to exist as an entity there can only be tension in such a society. It has no historical reason for existence, and the Vlaams Blok is indicative of the unhappy marriage that the imposition of a German Duke as King of Belgium created. It is a country without purpose, and one where the increasing ethnic strife will lead to its eventual dissolution into a regional component of the European Union.

Some day the French, Dutch and Flemish will walk out of their homes in Marcel, Amsterdam or Brussels and be right in Gaza. Then they may understand what the chaotic environment, pain and suffering are all about.

When the Indian villages are converted into Islam the Hindu Temples are turned into the mosques. Some day the St. Peter’s Basilica, the Westminster Abbey as well as the Notre Dame may change hands as well. Why not? After all a few years ago there was a sign in Bethlehem welcoming the Christians to the birthplace of Jesus, a Palestinian Arab. When the truth and facts are no longer relevant anything is possible. When the UN sabotages the Israeli resolution to protect the children of Israel while passing the Palestinian resolution to protect the Palestinian children the world has clearly gone mad.

The Christian world is less interested in the plight of the Coptic Christians in Egypt, Nigerian Christians or the Lebanese Christians than converting a handful of Jews. The primary item on the world agenda is to restrain Ariel Sharon and force the capitulation of Israel. Who cares about the slavery in Sudan?

"the Christians to the birthplace of Jesus, a Palestinian Arab"

Ah. So the King of The Jews was a Palestinian Arab ? Now it is clear why the problem has arisen, for he was a descendant of David, and King David you suggest was also an Arab

Tell me when Jesus visited the Temple was it still a Jewish Temple or already the Al-Aqsa Mosque ?

For was not Jesus of Nazareth the most famous Jew ever to have lived ?

David

Would you kindly show evidence of the Catholic Church's denial of the link between sexual intercourse and HIV transmissionthe Catholic Church's denial of the link between sexual intercourse and HIV transmission?

Red Baron, if you are unhappy with the definition that Jesus was a Palestinian Arab or simply a Palestinian please address it to Yasser Arafat. Bethlehem was and still is in Judea but if the world accepts it then it would be very difficult for the Palestinian Arabs to have a claim. On the other hand, if Jesus is adopted into the ranks of Palestinian Arabs then it will make it easier to eradicate the Jewish attachment to the land and defeat the Jews. Please think about it, as it is not a stupid strategy. They have desecrated the Joseph tomb, burned down the 2000-year old synagogue in Jericho and wiped out all Jewish relics outside the Jewish communities in Gaza. They leave no stone unturned and employ every type of warfare imaginable to hurt the Jews. We would probably agree on that.

As for the theological issues, we would disagree. From the Jewish perspective and I only speak for myself; there is no shred of evidence of Jesus’ existence. Jews don’t accept any kind of idols whether they are dead Jews or statues. We don’t need the middlemen to connect with G-d! Also, unlike you we read the original Torah in Hebrew and don’t rely on some fraudulent translation.

"Also, unlike you we read the original Torah in Hebrew and don’t rely on some fraudulent translation. "

The Stone Edition from Artscroll is "fraudulent" you say ?

The Chaldean Abraham emerged from Iraq so the legend says, and Moses was an Egyptian; and the region around Jerusalem a Roman Province like England. Indeed the column outside York Minster from the Roman Headquarters is dated AD 73 which is around the time the Temple said to have been in Jerusalem collapsed.

How much of the Hebrew writings you read were prepared in what is today Iraq ? It is confusing for Westerners to understand the tribal differences that make your attempts at distinguishing one Middle Eastern tribe from another so difficult; in your actions and attitudes you are similar; perhaps it is those similarities which make you seek definitional differences on minor points.

"Jews don’t accept any kind of idols whether they are dead Jews or statues."

Aha ! So Jews are like Protestants....we are making progress.

While we are at it I thought that this article which I came across best demonstrates the blatant hypocrisy of all those who criticise in the name of peace.
http://www.iht.com/articles/119197.html
William Safire: The magical solution
"In Geneva next week, rejected politicians representing not even a minority of the parties in the dispute will pose for cameras while signing an agreement in the benevolent presence of Jimmy Carter.
(The former president says "Yasser Arafat could not have survived politically if he had accepted" President Bill Clinton's generous proposals.)
Melanie,
your paragraph : "Yet the truly global aspirations of the jihad and its systematic persecution of Christians, Hindus and reformist Muslims are never mentioned by Blair and Bush. Nor do they ever mention the torrent of demented Jew-hatred pouring out of the Arab world which provides limitless incitement for terror." Yet the truly global aspirations of the jihad and its systematic persecution of Christians, Hindus and reformist Muslims are never mentioned by Blair and Bush. Nor do they ever mention the torrent of demented Jew-hatred pouring out of the Arab world which provides limitless incitement for terror. Yet the truly global aspirations of the jihad and its systematic persecution of Christians, Hindus and reformist Muslims are never mentioned by Blair and Bush. Nor do they ever mention the torrent of demented Jew-hatred pouring out of the Arab world which provides limitless incitement for terror. Doubtless, their silence is caused by fear ....."

Should take into account that they like Carter consider Arafat's political life more important than peace and that the bloody mayhem released with all its excesses is just part of the price. The price of establishing a Palestinian State has to be placed at the dhimmi's door and unfortunately this is already being felt in happenings of the past three years. In the wider context it has not been plain sailing in Iraq thanks to the "buddies" pandering to Syria. The fear in Europe is real but that the West's political agenda is also very selective of those it dethrones is not in doubt.
Canada will impose Sharia law for Muslims.
What happens now if a Muslim commits an offence against a dhimmi? Will he demand Sharia law over the infidel's secular rights? Ho hum! Why should we be bothering our heads about this? Why is it that Pastor Niemoller's words come back to haunt me so often nowadays?
It is happening in Belgium and France that criminals are fleeing back to their "Ghettos" where they are protected by their "own police".
Just to spice this up: what do you think Enoch Powell would be saying?

Canada will impose Sharia law for Muslims"

Oh yes ? Do tell.....

Canada will impose Sharia law for Muslims"

Oh yes ? Do tell.....

Roger,
There were no Arabs in Judea, Samaria or if you wish, Palestine, at the time of Christ. The nomadic tribes that came from Arabia only arrived centuries later.

One big question I have for the Church in particular and for Christians in general is why they have not said a word about Arafat's efforts to discredit Judaism's connections to the Temple Mount? If the Temple was not there then all the basis of Christianity is in doubt because then all that "story" of the Romans, the prison in which Jesus was held, the Last Supper is not true. One cannot square it with Islamic thought which also seems to be at odds with archeology. In their effort Arafat's WAKF which controls the Temple Mount have been destroying a lot archeological evidence much to the chagrin of both Jewish and Christian Historians.

What I would love to see is the genetic make up of so called Palestinians and those of yore (those Christians from the time of Christ and not the converted Huns and Goths).
You know like the One that some British geneticists did on the Lemba tribe in South Africa showing the DNA linkage to the Jewish priestly group ( the Cohanim)
Do you know how many Bosnians, Montenegro-ians and other East Europeans were "transplanted" by the Turks after they had been forced to convert?

Romulus,
Have a look here
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35850

Canada, however, is preparing for its 1 million-strong Muslim minority to be under the authority of a Sharia system enforced by the Canadian court system, according to the Canadian Law Times.

Christian Europe, which had been under assault by Islamic military and religious forces until 1683, for many reasons, once again finds itself confronted by a new and potentially more successful form of jihad, that is, the Islamic religious war against non Moslems. The history of the Islamic invasions of Europe even includes the slow infiltration of European countries by Moslems, until a critical mass was reached and the various European Christian countries reacted militarily to the Moslem threat. Europe and even the United States now face a simliar but more devastating threat from the Islamist jihadists since now the Islamists have access to nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons. The Christian West is further weakened by its conflict's of faith and belief within itself, between secularism, atheism, humanism, serious doubts as to the value of any relgious or ethical system, and even a revival of the Judeo Christian tradition. The Islamist enemy has no such problems, having chosen to murder anyone who dares to express any unorthodox thinking. The European victories over Islam were preceded by years of intermittant conflict and doubts as to the necessity of out and out warfare, but once the decision was made, the ultimate European victory was never really in doubt.

No, Romulus, we are not like you. We don’t believe in a dead Jew on a stick or a virgin woman who gave him birth. Also, unlike you we don’t go around the world trying to dip somebody in the water. Years ago the Christians were killing us, while these days the Christians love us. It is a great pleasure for us to know that now you love us but please love somebody else for a change.

I just love the anti-Semites, as they are so easy. …”in your actions and attitudes you are similar”. Only a typical anti-Semite would say something like that. No, Red, we are not similar at all and in fact very different.

As for one translation better than the other, I would totally agree. Some translations are far superior to others. However, anyone who is bi or multilingual knows that is virtually impossible to relate the meaning of a certain phrase from one language to another using the same words. Also, some words have a number of meanings in one language while very specific in another language. So, no translation can replace the accuracy of the original Torah and unless you read it in Hebrew you have not read the exact bible. Again, there is no shred of any evidence in the Torah of Jesus’ existence. The references to a Jew by the name of Yoshke and his mother Miriam in Talmud are too vague to make a clear determination.

However, this is not the issue. Will there ever come a time when the world will direct its obsession away from the Jews and focus on another group?

I don't quite understand you're opening flourish, Mrs/Ms/Miss Phillips. Surely the point is that Israel's actions are ambiguous in that settlement, properly understood in terms of the 4th Geneva Convention, is a form of aggression in that it is an attempt to "grab" land by controlling demographic movement. What other pupose is there to settlement? So we are not simplistically inverting the reality of Arab aggression and Israeli defence. The situation is more complex. Arab states don't give a flying f**k about the Palestinians, above expeidient rhetoric. Israeli's want more land and take it through illicit means.
I admit that there are elements that want to destroy the legitimate aspirations of Jews to statehood (although even Hammas seem to be somewhat pragmatic on this issue - given a reasonable compromise)but I think that the catch-all "defense" response fails to grasp Israel's intentions of expansion nor the overwhelming majority of reasonable Palestinians whom simply want to live a normal life given a decent offer. This offer, despite pathetic claims to the contrary, has not been given since the beginning of the peace process. Arafat (despite being a backward, corrupt t***t) offered 77.5% of what was mandatory Palestine for peace - if that is not the most generous, pragmatic and constructive offer ever made - I don't know what you expect.

". Will there ever come a time when the world will direct its obsession away from the Jews and focus on another group?"

Only Jews are obsessed with Jews. See how this Weblog is absolutely inundated with Israel, a barely significant state with a population smaller than London and a much smaller GDP.

In fact most people have no interest in Jews, but like gays and lesbians, blacks, and every other hypersensitive minority they rant and rail against the Trustees of The Earth, the Anglo-Saxons.

Why don't we just stop talking about ews on this Weblog. It is so tiresome, and the resort to being offensive to Christians comes here from Jews not Muslims......

"So, no translation can replace the accuracy of the original Torah and unless you read it in Hebrew you have not read the exact bible"

So, no translation can replace the accuracy of the original Qu'uaran and unless you read it in Arabic you have not read the exact Koran"

Yes, Christians are fortunate that they are not tied down by conforming to Middle Eastern vanities.....that God spoke Hebrew and Arabic to Abraham is one of those strange ironies.

Most people know that God was English, and that this Sceptred Isle is the New Jerusalem.

"I just love the anti-Semites, as they are so easy. …”in your actions and attitudes you are similar”. Only a typical anti-Semite would say something like that. No, Red, we are not similar at all and in fact very different. "

Yes Roger, you are no different from Hamas, an organisation created by Israel to undermine the PLO. You have the same sneering contempt for ayone not of your opinion, you use the word "anti-Semitism" like a talisman so that now all that it means is "do not agree with Ariel Sharon"....it is like the Left used the word "Fascist" so now all it means is the inarticulate Left cannot agree.

You are perfectly debasing yourself and will make 'anti-Semitism' worthy of a shrug of the shoulders.

I disagree with you and consider you a bigot.

Rob, what is a Palestinian? Does a migrant worker who came from Syria to work in a Jewish agricultural community can be defined as a Palestinian? Is Palestinian an ethnicity or is Palestine a geographical location? If it is nothing more than a location and the Palestinians are Arabs can the Jews be defined as Palestinian? Are the Jews indigenous to the area or the Jews originated in Switzerland and decided that the swamps East of the Jordan River and the Negev desert were preferable to the Swiss valleys and Alps?

What ethnicity has always represented the majority in Jerusalem? Where are the Jewish holly places? Your analyses are flawed to the core. You made it sound as if there had always been a Palestinian Arab state. For your information it had never existed.

Also, the so-called Palestinian – Israeli problem is just one variable out of a mile-long differential equation. The Arab states did not allow the materialization of the UN Partition Plan of 1947 as they tried to wipe Israel out. In fact, after 55 years, 5 wars and all kinds of diplomatic, media, economic, etc, combat, they have not given up on their objective. The illustrious Anwar Sadat used to say that the goal of his generation was to reduce Israel in size while the future generations would take care of Israel’s existence.

The area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean shores is not the Arab land. Just because the Arabs who call themselves Palestinian have an aspiration to create a second Palestinian Arab state after Jordan, which is 70% - 75% Palestinian Arab, does not mean that it should be so. Some of us have an aspiration to own an oil well in Brunei but we will not blow up a bus or a kindergarten to achieve our objectives. Jordan will not last too long in its present form, as it is a brutal monarchy, which sooner or later will lose its grip on power. Jordan is a de-facto Palestinian Arab state. There are 22 Arab states and a tiny Jewish democracy 20% of which is Palestinian Arab. There are practically no Jews in all Arab states as they were murdered or forced to flee. There was only one country that accepted them – Israel.

Obviously, the demographic and terrorist warfare are working, as the blackmailed world wants to create another Palestinian Arab state. The world did not force a Palestinian Arab state either on Egypt when it occupied Gaza, or on Jordan when it controlled the West Bank. However, now that Jews are in control they have to accommodate the Palestinian Arabs. What about the 20 million Kurds! Why can’t they have a state?

Trianon, what a surprise? The Europeans shrugged their shoulders when 6M Jews were exterminated. It would not be the first time the Europeans shrug their shoulders.

"Trianon, what a surprise? The Europeans shrugged their shoulders when 6M Jews were exterminated. It would not be the first time the Europeans shrug their shoulders. "

6 million ? You err I think. It was 54-64 million that they say died in the years 1939-45; 20 million Soviets, 5.4 million Poles, 2.1 million Japanese, 14 million Chinese, 7.3 million Germans

.........a contrast with 37.5 million in total in 1914-18...which is the same as the number of Europeans killed 1939-45......which you describe as "Europeans shrug their shoulders"

". They have desecrated the Joseph tomb, burned down the 2000-year old synagogue in Jericho and wiped out all Jewish relics "

"Jews don’t accept any kind of idols whether they are dead Jews or statues."

So it doesn't really matter then !

Take up the White Man's burden--
Send forth the best ye breed--
Go, bind your sons to exile
To serve your captive's need;
To wait, in heavy harness,
On fluttered folk and wild--
Your new-caught sullen peoples,
Half devil and half child.

Take up the White Man's burden--
In patience to abide,
To veil the threat of terror
And check the show of pride;
By open speech and simple,
An hundred times made plain,
To seek another's profit
And work another's gain.

Take up the White Man's burden--
The savage wars of peace--
Fill full the mouth of Famine,
And bid the sickness cease;
And when your goal is nearest
(The end for others sought)
Watch sloth and heathen folly
Bring all your hopes to nought.

Take up the White Man's burden--
No iron rule of kings,
But toil of serf and sweeper--
The tale of common things.
The ports ye shall not enter,
The roads ye shall not tread,
Go, make them with your living
And mark them with your dead.

Take up the White Man's burden,
And reap his old reward--
The blame of those ye better
The hate of those ye guard--
The cry of those ye humor
(Ah, slowly!) toward the light:--
"Why brought ye us from bondage,
Our loved Egyptian night?"

Take up the White Man's burden--
Ye dare not stoop to less--
Nor call too loud on Freedom
To cloak your weariness.
By all ye will or whisper,
By all ye leave or do,
The silent sullen peoples
Shall weigh your God and you.

Take up the White Man's burden!
Have done with childish days--
The lightly-proffered laurel,
The easy ungrudged praise:
Comes now, to search your manhood
Through all the thankless years,
Cold, edged with dear-bought wisdom,
The judgment of your peers.

Hehehehe…we don’t worship the synagogue, we use the building to pray. The 2000-year old structure was a historical treasure. Obviously, the Jewish relics in Gaza irritated those who claimed that Jews had originated in Poland with no attachment to Israel. Unfortunately, a lot of people in the world buy that lie. The evacuation of the Israeli forces from the Joseph Tomb, subsequent desecration of it and the destruction of the Jewish seminary at the location demonstrated what could happen to the rest of Israel it she is not properly secured.

Trianon, we don’t compete in a ghastly contest as to who has suffered the most in Europe. The “Final Solution” was designed to exterminate every European Jewish man, woman and child without any economical or political justification. The efficient Killing Incorporated with the gas chambers, trains, mobile gas units and concentration camps was intended mainly for annihilation of the Jews. Jews were the only people in Europe killed for the "crime" of existing.

"Jews were the only people in Europe killed for the "crime" of existing"

Read up on T-4

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35850

Canada, however, is preparing for its 1 million-strong Muslim minority to be under the authority of a Sharia system enforced by the Canadian court system, according to the Canadian Law Times.

Posted by: Barry at November 29, 2003 04:19 PM

READ THIS INSTEAD:

http://www.discountblogger.com/archives/000722.html

Roger,
What is a Palestinian? Somebody decended from those Arabs resident in mandatory Palestine. Their sense of nationality and aspirations to nationhood are, perhaps, more something that has been forged through the experience of loosing their land and facing a common enermy yet (as Said, Hitchens et al argue in "Blaming the Victims") there is plenty of evidence of continuous Arab settlement in the region and a common sense of tradition and culture.
Are Jews indigenous to the region?
Some are - some are not. For practical purposes we can't start banging on about who owned where 2000 years ago. Otherwise would the Greeks or Italians have not just as strong a claim to the region. For practical purposes an American Jew (for exampl) can not claim to be an indigenous inhabitant of the region unless some attempt is made to at least show some immidiate decendancy from its continuous inhabitants. In this respect,those decendents of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, Syria and Jordan have a better case. Even here, however, I think we need to be careful. Should we demand a "right of return" for those expelled from Silesia in Germany or of the Greeks expelled from the Ottoman Empire?

Our starting point has to be who lives where now and how can they best realise their identity free from oppression and persecution. Hence, residents of the Gaza Strip and West Bank should have a state. They cannot realise a decent, dignified existence under Israeli rule. That is where they live - not Jordan. I really don't get the reason why the fact that "there is only 1 Jewish state in the Middle East" is rellevant to anything. There is only one Muslim state in Europe, there are no Buddist states in South America. So what!

Should the Kurds have a state? If the Kurds cannot live without oppression within occupied Northern Iraq and Southern Turkey and a majority of them want autonomy then yes.

Rob, the world would care about the Kurdish state only if the Jews owned some land in their area. In fact, the Jews themselves would have started a self-destructive debate on how to give the Kurds full independence. However, the Kurds blow up neither the discothèques nor buses and have to deal with Iran, Turkey and Iraq not Israel. Hence, they will not be rewarded. There will be no argument and no Kurdistan.

As for the Palestinian Arabs, many Egyptian Arabs moved to Israel. They speak Arabic and go to Arabic schools. Their language, customs and traditions are identical with the Palestinian Arabs. Are they Palestinian? Even Yasser Arafat was born in Cairo.

The Arab states expelled 1 Million Jews. Could they go anywhere else but a place where there was a Jewish presence to preserve their lives and fight for their existence? By throwing out the Jews from the lands where they lived for 1000s of years the Arabs themselves defined Israel as a Jewish refuge. In fact, the Arabs legitimized Israel as a country where a Jew can find safety.

As for the Palestinian Arab state, there had never been such in the history of this mankind. There were Arab communities but never a state. Please get real. The world can push a state on them but they are not going to take it because they don’t want a Palestinian state next to Palestinian Jordan and Israel. They want a Palestinian state that will encompass both Jordan and Israel.

Roger,
1)I think you are being a little over paranoid over the reasons for the lack of interest in Kurdish independence - that the only reason we care about Israel is beacsue there are Jews involved. I think the fuss is (a) that the affront to human dignity demonstrated by Israels treatment of the Palestinians (road blocks, water supply monopolisation, house demolition, crop destruction - all which seem to have no real role in protecting Israels legitimate right to self-determination but more geared towards protecting illegal settlements) is more stark - at least currently. Turkeys treatment of the Kurds has bettered recently in attempts to placate the European Union and thankfully Saddam is gone. (b)The level of criticism Israel receives is largely due to its own self-righteous insistence that it is the defender of western values amidst a dark sea of Arab backwardness. We judge Israel by its own standards which they constantly fail to uphold. (c) Israels close association with the US suggests that they only get away with the abuses of human dignity listed because there is a correspondence of interests between the US and themselves. I think it is more a suspicion of US interests than a particularly anti-Jewish mentality that drives the anti-Israel cause. Having said this, I think that the number of those on the left who use Israel as a means to express their own anti-semitism is significant enough to make your point not entirely trivial.
(2)Who are the "they" that don't really want a Palestinian state but "really" want to encompass both Israel and Jordan. Any opinion poll shows clearly that the overwhealming majority of those in Gaza and the West Bank would be happy with a withdrawl to the '67 boundries and half of Jerusalem (which, incidently, was not offered to them at Camp David). As I said earlier, even Hammas are prepared for a pragmatic compromise over the issue.
3)There has never been a Palestinian state in history. So What! The overwhealming Arab majority in Gaza and the West Bank cannot realise their collective aspirations under Israeli rule. Therefore they should have a state. Which other self-determination movements have had to posit a historical precedent in order to justify statehood exactly?
4) I agree that the expulsion of Jews from Arab states was repulsive (although having recently returned from Marakesh, where the Jewish community lives very harmoniously with the Muslim majority I'm more optomistic about the potentiallity of co-existence) but I don't get why this should justify denying residents of Gaza and the West Bank a state. It certainly provides a cogent rationalle for Israels existence but (unless there are millions of other Jews queuing up to move in) seems to provide no reson why Palestinians should all move to Jordan to make way.
5)Again, i'm not sure what bearing your point about Egyptians moving to Israel has - in general I don't understand what these points about ethnicity/locality are aiming at. I wanted to try to develop a fairly pragmatic understanding of the situation. We should start from where people live now and work out what is the best way forward for people that identify themselves in a certain way to live free from persecution and oppression. The two-state solution seems an obvious means to accomodate this. Of course, we should not tolerate any attempt to manipulate the demographics (through settlement or "security fences") to either sides advantage. Also, we should take seriously the implications of insisting upon "rights of return" (how should we extend this - Silesian Germans, Ottoman Greeks etc etc). We should balance the obvious familly connections and identity people have with the land againt the danger of elevating this to a universal principle. This should be the basic parameters for looking at what is going on.
Regards,
Rob

1. Thank you very much for your concern and love toward the Jews. We are very familiar with the European manifestation of love toward us. I guess it is because of the European love 50% of the European Jews were exterminated. It will take the Jews 1000 years to recover from that type of European love. The Europeans give a special meaning to the phrase “we love you to death”.
2. The roadblocks, house demolitions, etc, is necessary response to terrorist acts. You obviously can’t understand it and I don’t wish a tragedy on anyone but if a member of your family is blown up into pieces while riding a bus or eating in a restaurant you will understand it very fast.
3. How did you come up with the notion that the Jewish communities are illegal? Did you borrow the concept from the majority of the Arab states that don’t recognize Israel and consider Tel Aviv an illegal Jewish settlement? If you are talking about the Jewish communities in Judea and Samaria, they are located on the Jewish land. However, if you want to follow the definitions of the hostile to Israel UN it is a “disputed” land (resolution 242). Even the UN is not acknowledging it as an Arab land. When you buy a property in the UK don’t you secure your deed and title outlining a specific area in references to some other properties bordering it? How do you reference it when the legal status of the land is not determined and the police and state powers are absent?
4. Despite the fact that Israel has suffered countless terrorists attacks, was scudded by Saddam Hussein, and is surrounded by the enemies the Europeans judge Israel by the standards most European states cannot meet. The Europeans loved the Jews when they obediently marched into the gas chambers. A powerful, free Jew on his own land is not to the European liking.
5. The Jews are familiar with the Hamas “pragmatism” just as we are familiar with the European love. If you go shopping in Jerusalem or ride too many buses in Tel Aviv or eat at a Haifa restaurant you may experience their “pragmatism” first hand. As for the borders of 1967, most Arab states don’t recognize Israel within any borders but even if they did the borders of 1967 would invite more terror and military campaigns, as they are not defensible. Is that what the Europeans are interested in? By the way, if you want to divide Jerusalem why not divide Paris and give Morocco and Algeria sovereignty over certain neighborhoods?
6. A Palestinian Arab entity in Gaza cannot be self-sufficient as there is not enough water. Plus the resources are very limited. The birth rate is so high that the confrontation we see now is a child’s play comparing to what is expected in 10 years when the Gaza population is drastically increased. Hopefully, the Europeans will accept Gaza into the EU and provide the people. Let the Europeans show their love for the Gaza’s residence since they don’t demonstrate much concern for the Tibetans, the Chechens in Russia, the Kurds in Iraq, the Liberians, the Lebanese who are occupied by Syria, the Coptic Christians who are persecuted in Egypt, New Caledonia which is occupied by France, the displaced islanders in the Indian ocean, the war in Sri Lanka, the disputed area of Kashmir, the slavery in Sudan, etc.
7. Obviously, the recent murderous act in a Jewish neighborhood in Casablanca is irrelevant and your experience in Marrakech is a true representation of the Jewish Arab coexistence in an Arab state.

I guess it is because of the European love 50% of the European Jews were exterminated. It will take the Jews 1000 years to recover from that type of European love. The Europeans give...."

"The Europeans"....a generic terms like "The Jews " can in this context be seen as a racist generalisation and in breach of UK and EU anti-discrimination law.

It represents a blanket smearing of "Europeans" as "Taetervolk" and is a smear, and a blood libel very similar to those perpetrated against Jews by the Nazi ideologue Julius Streicher and Josef Goebbels.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0794/9407019.htm

I suggest you read this useful Website Roger to come to terms with your xenophobia

What is the matter, Trianon? Does it bother you that this Jew does not want to lie down and die or accept your diatribes? I know you love me. Why don’t you read this?
http://www.getlostmagazine.com

Are you Jewish Roger ? I thought you were just a xenophobe

Roger,
I don't see the point in arguments where you just try to psychoanalyse your opponent - i.e. "you say x but what you really mean is y" - so will not respond to your ideas about the "real" european agenda in the Middle East.
Resolution 242 (supported by the US) describes Gaza and the West Bank as "territories occupied in war" - it is Israel that decribes them as "disputed". According to the 4th Geneva convention it is illegal to move civillian populations into lands "occupied in war". This is demographic manipulation of the outcome of a future peace process.
Therefore, point (2) - Israel's "necessary response to terrorist acts" - falls, as we can see many of its actions as defending settlements and not Israel propper. This especially applies to water supply monopolisation, road-blocks and the destruction of property to make way for Jewish communities.
As regards borders, Arab states will recognise Israel within its 1967 borders similtaneously with Israels recognition of self-determination for the residents of Gaza and the West Bank. UN resloutions allow for flexibility on borders - so that Israel can adopt a defencible position - so long as land is exchanged with that from Israel.
If we are genuinely interested in peace then this is the only route forward. Hammas et al will loose their rationale once the majority of the Palestinian interest (self-determination) is satisfied.

The reason you are unhappy with my argument is because your position is not only pro-Palestinian but in my opinion, anti-Semitic. Many Europeans like you who create a hypothetical scenario are hallucinating that Israel is bordering Norway or is an island somewhere around Iceland. Just 10 years ago one of the Israeli neighbors blasted Israel with 39 scuds to the jubilation of many Palestinians. Your prescription is a recipe for the destruction of Israel and the “Final Solution”.

Even the much- heralded Egyptian-Israeli accord is a pure sham as Egypt has violated 49 provisions out of 50. The reason Egypt has not attacked Israel yet is because it does not have the funds to do so but it has sponsored conferences on how to destroy her.

You need to read the 242 again as it states “territories” not “the territories” and the Geneva convention does provide for self-defense. In 1967 Israel was blockaded and the UN removed the peacekeeping force leaving Israel at the mercy of her enemies.

If you are genuinely interested in peace perhaps you should encourage some European states to demonstrate the exemplary behavior. When is France leaving Corsica and New Caledonia? When will Russia hand in 4 islands back to Japan? Will the UK ever leave the Malvinas? Will Europe persuade Syria to get out of Lebanon? Will China give back the Indian territory? Perhaps nothing is more important in this world than forcing the 9-mile wide Jewish state to submit to the demand of those who want to destroy her. After all according to the European poll 59% of the Europeans believe that Israel is the biggest threat to peace in the world.

Will the UK ever leave the Malvinas?"

Great Britain is nOt on the Malvinas.

Great Britain owns the Falkland Islands which the Argentinian Fascist junta tried to steal by military force: it is sovereign territory as it was when the German Kriegsmarine Officer Graf Spee murdered British seamen there in 1914 and had to be hunted down.

Again you fail to respond to argument and just confirm your own prejudices.
1) There is no popular movement of Falkland Islanders to rid them of UK rule whatsoever, so no question of the illegitimacy of UK rule. Consent is what is vital - not who owned what when - this is a dead end argument. Likewise, polls in Corsica reveal that people do not want complete autonomy but a process of limited self-determination from France, which is being dealt with through an (albeit slow) bureaucratic process. Likewise there is no real antagonism at Lebanon's occupation by Syria - if there were it would be entirely unsustainable. However, everybody in the West Bank and Gaza (with the exeption of those illegally transfered to those territories against the 4th Geneval Convention) does not want to be ruled by Israel. There is no consent amongst the population. What part of this do you not get exactly?
2) 242 states "territories" to leave open a pragmatic re-drafting of borders to accomodate both Israel's security and a geographically continuous state for those Arabs living in the west bank and Gaza. It certainly does not say "disputed" - this is a completely different legal kettle of fish. Incidently, how you read it depends upon the language it was drafted in. The French has different connotations to the English.
3) I'm intrigued to know what exactly you expect the Palestinians to do. Are they all "evil" and complicit in terror so should be forced to accept the terms they are given? (the term "racist" springs to mind) Are they backward and simple? Was it after all the Jews who made the "desert bloom" and should be rewarded accordingly? (The term "colonialism" springs to mind) Should they be "transfered" to Jordan to give the Israeli's some space? (in which case the words "ethnic cleansing" and "Milosevic" spring to mind. What should the fate of the residents of Gaza and the West Bank be ideally?
4) Yes Israel faces an existential threat from its neigbours but so do the residents of Gaza and the West Bank in that every effort is being made to destroy any hope of a geographically continuous state being created.
5) You seem to have an issue with everybody who happens to have been born between Finland and Spain - the UK and the Ukraine. Not to mention the Arabs and Muslims. Sort it out.

gentlemen
Let's not lose site of the fact that if the Muslims have their way every Jew not matter their sex or age will be run into the sea.
notwithstanding that the state of Israel will cease to exist.

The UN and EU and others incl Muslims are moving to a place where the only defensive option for the Jewish state is Nuclear.

That is because they all hate what the Jew stands for.
G-d's special people.
Jerusalem and Israel and the Jews per se represent Him.
They are living standards of His goodness and mercy.

Read the torah it is about a people and their G-d, the fact that they whored themselves to other g-ds again and again and broke His heart.
How different are/were they to us?

The new Covanent shows that this is all part of the plan that we all can see He is for us not against us.
As it is about a man who is the most written about figure in history no matter what Some write.
The Christians like the Jews before them have not represented their God well apon the earth to others.

Jerusalem and Israel and the Jews are a living testimoney that He is true.
But what do we do?

Why do you bicker and denigrate each other, when the real monstrocity is happening before your very eyes.

How many real (well thought out) letters have you written to the papers or Tricky Tony (the so called christian) or the head of the EU or UN?

Have you written to the leaders of your political parties to force the issue?

I Read Nov 28th.JC article -Excellent and frightening.
I was born in the UK so were my parents and even my paternal G'father was British. I grew up here always feeling safe, secure and British. Sadly, for the 1st. time in my life, in these last few years, I now feel insecure. The UK muslim population is I believe 2.5 million. With their natural growth and immigration of both sorts, there will in 20 years from now be between 15 and 20 million in the UK. It won't effect me I am 68, but I worry for my children and grand children.

If the Evening Standard report on the 2001 Census is to be believed, the reproduction rates of Bangladeshi and Pakistani families in London, as a microcosm of the Uk make the Welfare State unviable.

There is a huge shortage of medical staff in LOndon and increasing the population at the bottom and driving out the MIddle Class is to reproduce the New York experience under Mayor Lindsey as he populated the city with welfare recipients and drove away the tax base.

Jane Jacobs "Death & Life of Great American Cities".....looks like London is following suit. How can you bring village life to England with baby bonds and the like to build up an underclass with such a plethora of languages....how can public services cope ? Who will staff them ? Who will pay for them ? We certainly know who will use them........a little bit of forward thinking is called for

Mike, don’t worry. Let the forum participants throw some dirt if it makes them feel a little better. We are used to it.

Despite all anti-Bush protesters and anti-American demonstrators the British government at least until now has had some very wise people. The UK has been aligned with the US cause the intelligent people realize what country would have controlled the Malvinas had the United States supported Argentina.

In any case we are slowly advancing. Even the forum adversaries of Israel recognize that Israel have been under the existential threat for the last 55 years and the Jewish communities in the area have been subjected to terror for at least 130 years. They can’t identify with the Israeli experience cause their countries are not in the same situation. It is one thing to watch the tragedies on TV or read about them in the paper, it is totally another to lose one’s life dancing in a discothèque. Do they really want to identify with the Jews?

Israel goes after the terrorists while the terrorists blow up the schools, shopping centers and restaurants. Yet, the anti-Semites who disguise themselves as anti-Sharon put forward the demands on Israel seeking her capitulation. Had Israel acted the way they want Israel to act there would have been no Israel. It bothers the anti-Semites that despite all wars, terror and the annihilation of the European Jewry, the Jews did not disappear and not only that but they built a vibrant democracy, made the desert bloom and created a third economy in the Mediterranean with a standard of living approaching the UK. To them Yasser Arafat, who was born in Cairo, is a native Palestinian Arab but a French Jew who moved to Israel to live like a Jew and not hide his yarmulke is an alien.

They are also very selective in identifying the victims and those who they love to rally for. How many humanists are assisting the Chechens? Who is meditating the tribal war in Nigeria? Does anyone care about the slavery in Sudan? When was the last time the networks reported from either Chechnya or Sudan? Why are there more reporters in a square mile in Israel than in all 22 Arab states? Is there nothing to report from the 22 Arab states? How many protesters are demonstrating in support for the independence of New Caledonia? In their twisted imagination and infinite ignorance they believe that all Lebanese welcome the Syrian occupation.

Israel met the requirements of the UN resolution 425. What did Israel get in return? Zillion rockets pointed out at Israel, the murder of the innocent Israelis and Palestinian terrorists who intended to emulate the Hezbollah success.

That is the world that the Jews have lived in for generations. It is difficult but that is our reality. Despite all odds, overt or latent anti-Semitism we will survive, prosper and remain Jewish

Michael Stewart, your feelings are well-founded. The difference what it used to be for the Jews and is now is Israel with its army ready to defend the citizens, institutions that are preserving democracy, the high tech base which is advancing the Israeli economy, etc. That is what infuriates the anti-Semites the most. Since the current real estate prices in Israel are depressed it may be wise to take a look at the Israeli real estate opportunities.

Romulus, based on your forward thinking some will identify you as a xenophobe.

Roger, you are risible. How taxation policy and preserving the metropolitan tax base can be described as equivalent to your brand of obsessional ethno-centricity is beyond rational comprehension. It is clear you are a xenophobe.

As for your comment on the Falkland Islands which people like yourself call the Malvinas, the US DID support the junta. Read the Daily Telegraph comment on Al Haig when he came to London that he was "an enemy".

THe US State Department tipped the wink to Argentina which is why they invaded. Thatcher did not react as Haig had anticipated and the nuclear submarine in the River Plate was prepared to launch an attack on Buenos Aires.

THe USA having betrayed Britain (not for the first or last time) faced the prospect of seeing a NATO ally defeated by Argentina backed by Spain and the USSR using its spy satellites.

Al Haig was no friend of Great Britain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2002/03/12/boknot612.xml

"...while we fully supported Britain's efort to take back the Falklands, we thought it would be dangerous to move the war onto the mainland of South America. Margaret Thatcher heard me out, but...I couldn't persuade her to make a commitment not to invade..."

Ronald Reagan [former President of the United States]_An American Life_1990, at 360.

. Al Haig was a powerful persuader and anyone on the other side of the table had to stand up to him, not give ground. Mr Haig had clearly played upon the imminence of hostilities and the risk that Britain would lose international support if fighting broke out. I told Francis the terms were totally unacceptable...

I could not have stayed as Prime Minister had the War Cabinet accepted Francis Pym's proposals. I would have resigned."

Margaret Thatcher [former Prime Minister, England]_The Downing Street Years_1993, at 205, 206, 208.

"We were put under continual pressure from Washington to avoid the final military humiliation of Argentina, which they now seemed to see as inevitable."

Margaret Thatcher [former Prime Minister, England]_The Downing Street Years_1993, at 229.

Attention was, in fact, somewhat diverted from our problems by the extraordinary behavior of the US Ambassador to the United States, Mrs. Kirkpatrick. Having cast her veto vote alongside ours, she announced only minutes later that if the vote could be taken again she would, on instructions just received, abstain....

Apparently, succcuming to pressure from the Latin American countries, Al Haig had telephoned her from Versailles telling her to withdraw her vote of support from us but she had not received the message in time. There was a still more embarassing sequel to this event for the United States. Just before lunch in the Palace of Versailles, the television cameras were allowed in and an American journalist asked President Reagan what had `lain behind the US confusion at the United Nations the previous evening. To my amazement, he said that he did not know anything about it."

Margaret Thatcher [former Prime Minister, England]_The Downing Street Years_1993, at 232

. As Sir John Nott, Britain’s defence secretary during the war, has just concluded in his autobiography:

The United States [...] did not wish to choose between Britain and their interests in Latin America. Indeed, apart from [Casper] Weinberger and the Pentagon, the Americans were very, very far from being on our side.

The Reagan administration had expended a great deal of effort cultivating the new Argentine dictator, general Galtieri, because here at last was a South American leader who would, up to and including with men and arms, fall in behind US policy in the region, with El Salvador being the key issue for people like Kirkpatrick, Vernon Walters and National Security Advisor William Clark

To jump slightly ahead of our narrative, a key trigger factor in the launching of the war was the Junta’s reading of history. Although flawed in their understanding of international relations, and profoundly ignorant of the outside world, the more acute analysts available to the regime had a subtle enough take on the post-war behaviour of the US. They looked to her actions over both Suez and the Yom Kippur war, and concluded that, were Buenos Aries to instigate a war, America would intervene diplomatically, but, as both those precedents showed, the end result would be to the benefit of the newly created status quo. In this, they were not wrong, as it is precisely what the Reagan administration attempted to do, but they were mistaken, for they had concluded from Suez an immutable law, which, as Thatcher was to show, didn’t actually exist.

Haig, in the words again of John Nott, ‘gave every assistance to the United Nations and every other mediator – Brazilian, Mexican and the rest to bring about a negotiated settlement, on terms which would have been seen as a surrender in the United Kingdom’. To repeat, Haig was not a bigoted Anglophobe in the fashion of a Kirkpatrick, but an Atlanticist friend of the UK, yet the tilt of his diplomacy that April was to, time after time, present London with schemes whereby, sovereignty of the islands would be shared, the islanders would be offered safe passage to Britain, the taskforce would stop at Ascension, the British would administer the islands under the Argentine flag (or vice versa), an irrevocable timetable would be set for ‘decolonization’ if the Argentines did withdraw, and on and on it went, with the sole discernible fact about the nature of American intervention in two other countries’ war being, ‘you’re all as silly as each other, so you’ll all have to compromise a little bit’.

After the invasion the US declined to impose sanctions on Argentina, and diplomatically entered the fray to the disadvantage of Britain. The Europeans on the other hand, imposed, through the EEC, immediate sanctions (although individual countries like the Irish and the Spanish consistently voted against the UK at the UN), and as for the French! The great revelation in Nott’s biography is that:

In many ways, Mitterrand and the French were our greatest allies. They had supplied the Argentines with Mirage and Super Etendard aircraft in the earlier years; but, as soon as the conflict began, Mitterrand's defence minister got in touch with me to make some of these available so that our Harrier pilots could train against them before setting off for the South Atlantic. The French also supplied us with detailed technical information on the Exocet, showing us how to tamper with the missiles.

A remarkable worldwide operation then ensued to prevent Argentina from buying further Exocets. I authorised agents to pose as bona fide purchasers of equipment on the international market, ensuring that we outbid the Argentines; meanwhile, other agents identified Exocet missiles in various markets and covertly rendered them inoperable.

It was a remarkably successful operation. In spite of strenuous efforts by several countries – particularly Israel and South Africa – to help Argentina, we succeeded in intercepting and preventing the supply of further equipment to the Argentines, who were desperately seeking resupply.

Well, some prefer fantasies to reality. Had the USA aligned itself with Argentina in regard to the Malvinas the outcome would have been different. By the way, why was Reagan knighted?

As for xenophobia, where did it find its origin? Does not it relate to both racism and anti-Semitism? Jews are as multi-cultural and multi-racial as anybody could possibly be. Many people are either totally ignorant about the Jews or confused. They apply to us their own concepts and definitions and they are frustrated when the Jews reject them. After all they have tried to sell us their stuff through force or love for the last 2000 years and we are not buying. Hence, there are a lot of angry salesmen. Israel is an amalgamation of people from 80 countries speaking 120 languages. Yet, they are Jews. Still confused?

"Israel is an amalgamation of people from 80 countries speaking 120 languages. Yet, they are Jews. Still confused?"

Not at all. Only 25.4% were actually born in Israel so you would expect that.

"Well, some prefer fantasies to reality. Had the USA aligned itself with Argentina in regard to the Malvinas the outcome would have been different. By the way, why was Reagan knighted? "

Clearly you do "prefer fantasies to reality. "

I wasa not aware Reagan was "knighted"....I thought Caspar Weinberger received an honorary one.

The US had no choice....it would hate to lose its closest ally. And to explain to Argentinians what they have in common with Nagasaki would have been embarrassing for Reagan and Haig to explain.

04:17UK: British warships carried nuclear bombs during 1982 Falkland War; never entered Latin American nations` waters (AP)

Hmmm, very intresting....

Look up the dispositions of Polaris submarines Roger

Well…the English determination to defend the territories regardless of the price is admirable. Also, the British alliance with the US is a national UK asset. The British are smart as they properly identify their significance. These days just the California’s gross state product with much smaller population equals the British GNP. France, on the other hand, can’t grasp its irrelevance.

"California’s gross state product with much smaller population equals the British GNP"

Only "equals"...not richer. Remember Britain is a poor country unlike Israel or Iraq, we cannot afford all those weapons......but we are not living above our means either !

Well…obviously, the productivity rate is higher in California than in the UK. A number of economic indicators including the purchasing power and income per capita are also higher in California. The USA is a super power while the UK can only reminisce about its glorious past.

Right after the Jews fought off Her Majesty’s occupiers in the land of their forefathers the British Empire came down like a house of cards.

As for comparing Israel with Iraq, only a putrid anti-Semite would draw something as ridiculous as that. Fortunately, he has a Jew, even if he is a dead Jew, to forgive him his sins.

Actually California benefits from more public subsidy (to aerospace) than most other places and more Pentagon dollars. It can measure productivity by value-added in aerospace rather than any broad-based productivity miracle: it is increasingly uncompetitive as Andrew Grove recently commented.

Israel too is a subsidy junkie and would change dramatically if it ever became a free-market economy when it could neither afford an airline nor housing developments expanding outside major cities.

I am sorry you see yourself as a "putrid anti-Semite" - you must look in the mirror Roger and try to establish a higher feeling of self-worth, still writing in the manner you do, I can fully understand your sense of self-loathing

Distortions, throwing dirt and misrepresentations are some of the distinctive features of an anti-Semite. However, even the anti-Semites have a Jew who died for their sins. The Jews are not that lucky. We don’t have a Jew or gentile who died for our sins.

"We don’t have a Jew or gentile who died for our sins."

Poor Roger, you have the Messiah Jesus Christ....read the B'rit Hadashah and join the Messianic Jews and be Saved !

You can contact Jewish New Testament Publications, Inc
PO Box 615
Clarksville MD 21029

I do hope you find redemption Roger, your inner turmoil seems to be devouring you with bile and rancour

Thanks but the idols are not for me. We don’t believe in fairy tales about a dead Jew, a stick that he was nailed to, his virgin momma, etc. If you like the Greek mythology it is fine but it has no basis in Judaism. That is where the problem lies. For 2000 years the missionaries cant leave the Jews alone in peace. Those who could not convert the Jews by force these days employ a different tactics: love and deception.

Here are some websites that help the Jews in their quest for survival:

http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/
http://www.messiahtruth.com/

You seem very concerned about Christianity.....more than any Jew I have ever known....and you are the only one I have ever seen who denigrates and reviles Christianity......but you no doubt are representative of a faction of extremists......and since you represent such a small and insignificant minority we can sit back and laugh at your puerility.........

You are wrong! I am not a minority among the Jews. I am in the majority. The missionaries are spending exuberant funds to convert the Jews by any means possible. For 2000 years Jews have been tormented to convert, to accept some idols, to reject their own beliefs. Even the pogroms or annihilation did not change the Jewish values and beliefs and they still don’t get the message. Since hate did not work these days we are harassed with love and persuasion. A Jew cannot afford to be vulnerable. A weak, ignorant and easily susceptible Jew is a target.

Has anyone ever seen a Jewish missionary? In fact, Judaism forbids us to seek out the converts. In Judaism a person has to come to G-d by himself without any outside force or inducement.

When will you feel credible and sufficiently secure in your faith to leave us alone in peace? You are vile as you have the audacity to call me an extremist when you are the one who are pushing your faith and idol on me. The so-called Messianic Judaism designed to obtain credibility among the Jews and be established, as one of the streams of Judaism will never be accepted.

www.jewsforjudaism.org/
www.messiahtruth.com

Roger you are getting all steam up again. Calvinists do not seek converts; Calvinists believe in The Elect....you are not of The Elect.....you should stop going on about Christianity which you seem to associate with Catholicism....Calvinism does not want you Roger....it has no interest in you......you are an irrelevance to Calvinists......stop trying to ingratiate yourself

Great! Finally, somebody does not need to convert the Jews. Well, gosh, that is impressive. I have learned something new. What other denomination beside Calvinism is not fixed on conversion of the Jews? One more question. Can you also change the origin of your idol and focus on another nationality? Why don’t you give somebody else a chance? Be inclusive! Then, there will never be a problem.

Don't walk behind me, I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me, I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend.

Barry, don't trust WND. That group has a religious affiliation and is corresponding unfair toward other religions. What they say about Sharia in Canada is bullshit.

Of course Rupra forfeited the bail imposed by the idiotic Belgian court. He was arrested again in Cremona, Italy in Nov. 2002. Where is he now, anybody know?
L